Added
I just recall OP asking about that on the discord, and I'm not sure that they really got a direct answer, people pretty much just said well they're microbes so kind of breaks down at that point. I myself included. So if we're going to go down the route of lithovores breathing the minerals that they consume, in the situations where that was the apparent case, then that makes sense.
I didn't know we were switching up respiration and diet on microbes
Oh.
Would patagium muscles exist in song sauce pipers?
Patagialis Longus in birds, but for the patagium behind the leg that should work nicely as an origin muscle for the grashof, it's mostly tendon from what I can tell, but I haven't dug deep at all.
Would patagium muscles exist in song sauce pipers?
Patagialis Longus in birds, but for the patagium behind the leg that should work nicely as an origin muscle for the grashof, it's mostly tendon from what I can tell, but I haven't dug deep at all.
The diet ought to be fixed,
With the uh rocket and big stuff part
With the uh rocket and big stuff part
@HethrJarrod
That is one possible anchor point, and possibly the musculature in that area is a good option because of its proximity to the limb membrane which the fascia or chord or what have you would be in association with.
Looking at that now I'm kind of curious how the bone exactly functions for breathing, if it acts as a standstill support for muscles that pump lungs, or if the bone itself is mobile for helping to pump lungs.
If the idea was to use it as an anchor point for something, I would be interested in knowing what muscles you were wanting to associate, and if it was mobile during its use of breathing, I would wonder if it were to constrict the airways during flight if used the way that you're suggesting...
But if it were to be moving, mobile, the bone itself being used to help in ventilating the lungs, then that has implications for what sauce backs actually look like. It would suggest that they actually have a tail has a pumping motion visible comparable to an insect abdomen during breathing.
Given the through tube design of the respiratory system of these, and even their cousins which independently developed a through breathing ventilation, the ram ventilation concept strikes me as very applicable. At the very least, a hybridization of it and active breathing.
Membrane reference on their cousin
Musculature of their cousin
Musculature overlay with visible skeleton of their cousin.
While HethrJarrod is offering her idea I'll offer a better visual of my own previously dabbled bone concept.
The foot bone, there's only one foot bone, is shrunk so that the base of the wing toe is in comparably close proximity to the Albert joint and sidesteps the need to adjust anything else. While the first segment of the wing toe elongates to replace that length loss, and the second segment of the wing toe acts as I guess the final Wing segment functionally?
The saddle joint between the first and second segments of the wing toe May need more reinforcements so that it is strong enough to be that portion of a wing, but could also be unnecessary, and could even be changed into a hinge joint if that makes it simpler, I personally don't think it needs to be.
One thing about my design is that because the foot bone is short, it makes me wonder if that means the muscle used to extend the wing toe would lose strength potential. I think that the muscle could probably be extended in some manner, either down along the first segment of the wing toe (though I question the safety of the muscle being across a saddle joint like that) or possibly Make the foot bone nice and wide so that the muscle form becomes convergent rather than fusiform.
Is also was suggested to me that the small bone above the foot bone is supposed to be fitted, which is interesting to consider because that means that possibly the point in the skeleton that everyone has been talking about are different points in the skeleton.
Here is the skeleton that I had been initially working with, if curious. There is some notable skeletal differences between the two.
If it's a fitted joint, well first I'm curious why it wasn't fused, but that's beside the point, it as a fitted joint may not really have muscles directly associated with it. Rather it may have muscle or tendon that spans across it, while the joint itself if it were to become more mobile may result in a limb that tends to kick out at that point initially, though with a long toe for standing on that doesn't seem like a real big problem. Just adjust where your toe is standing. Kind of like having bowed legs.
"Retinaculum" is something important here when considering how to maintain the shape of the limb, as that is what keeps tendons arrange the way that they need to be along the bone.
Alternatively, it may be able to be manipulated indirectly by muscles spanning across it as they tug on the bones adjacent to it if it were to be loose. I don't know how safe that is, but honestly I could injure myself if I were to contract my muscles as far as I could and something that has this kind of system probably would just not contract their muscles any further than the joint would allow for. Hopefully that would not compromise other parts, but I suspect that there ought to be a position where they do in fact lock in order to allow maximum strength application of a muscle, probably the one associated with extending the wing toe since that is likely going to be the position that requires the most power application, or strength application.
That is one possible anchor point, and possibly the musculature in that area is a good option because of its proximity to the limb membrane which the fascia or chord or what have you would be in association with.
Looking at that now I'm kind of curious how the bone exactly functions for breathing, if it acts as a standstill support for muscles that pump lungs, or if the bone itself is mobile for helping to pump lungs.
If the idea was to use it as an anchor point for something, I would be interested in knowing what muscles you were wanting to associate, and if it was mobile during its use of breathing, I would wonder if it were to constrict the airways during flight if used the way that you're suggesting...
But if it were to be moving, mobile, the bone itself being used to help in ventilating the lungs, then that has implications for what sauce backs actually look like. It would suggest that they actually have a tail has a pumping motion visible comparable to an insect abdomen during breathing.
Given the through tube design of the respiratory system of these, and even their cousins which independently developed a through breathing ventilation, the ram ventilation concept strikes me as very applicable. At the very least, a hybridization of it and active breathing.
Membrane reference on their cousin
Musculature of their cousin
Musculature overlay with visible skeleton of their cousin.
While HethrJarrod is offering her idea I'll offer a better visual of my own previously dabbled bone concept.
The foot bone, there's only one foot bone, is shrunk so that the base of the wing toe is in comparably close proximity to the Albert joint and sidesteps the need to adjust anything else. While the first segment of the wing toe elongates to replace that length loss, and the second segment of the wing toe acts as I guess the final Wing segment functionally?
The saddle joint between the first and second segments of the wing toe May need more reinforcements so that it is strong enough to be that portion of a wing, but could also be unnecessary, and could even be changed into a hinge joint if that makes it simpler, I personally don't think it needs to be.
One thing about my design is that because the foot bone is short, it makes me wonder if that means the muscle used to extend the wing toe would lose strength potential. I think that the muscle could probably be extended in some manner, either down along the first segment of the wing toe (though I question the safety of the muscle being across a saddle joint like that) or possibly Make the foot bone nice and wide so that the muscle form becomes convergent rather than fusiform.
Is also was suggested to me that the small bone above the foot bone is supposed to be fitted, which is interesting to consider because that means that possibly the point in the skeleton that everyone has been talking about are different points in the skeleton.
Here is the skeleton that I had been initially working with, if curious. There is some notable skeletal differences between the two.
If it's a fitted joint, well first I'm curious why it wasn't fused, but that's beside the point, it as a fitted joint may not really have muscles directly associated with it. Rather it may have muscle or tendon that spans across it, while the joint itself if it were to become more mobile may result in a limb that tends to kick out at that point initially, though with a long toe for standing on that doesn't seem like a real big problem. Just adjust where your toe is standing. Kind of like having bowed legs.
"Retinaculum" is something important here when considering how to maintain the shape of the limb, as that is what keeps tendons arrange the way that they need to be along the bone.
Alternatively, it may be able to be manipulated indirectly by muscles spanning across it as they tug on the bones adjacent to it if it were to be loose. I don't know how safe that is, but honestly I could injure myself if I were to contract my muscles as far as I could and something that has this kind of system probably would just not contract their muscles any further than the joint would allow for. Hopefully that would not compromise other parts, but I suspect that there ought to be a position where they do in fact lock in order to allow maximum strength application of a muscle, probably the one associated with extending the wing toe since that is likely going to be the position that requires the most power application, or strength application.
Yea that works great!
I'm not sure that the ancestral larval form in this lineage has been thoroughly established, I know that I and a couple other folks were discussing what it may be like and what their life cycle, the ancestors life cycle, may have been like but I don't recall if there was any complete consensus on that.
I don't think it's really necessary for the initial submission here, I might make a supplemental image that can be added to the gallery later. But how the planktonic larvae actually looks at this moment isn't terribly important in my opinion.
I could possibly poke through some of the elaboration discussion, if I can find it, and see if we had actually settled on a body form. Might have been kind of worm-like?
I don't think it's really necessary for the initial submission here, I might make a supplemental image that can be added to the gallery later. But how the planktonic larvae actually looks at this moment isn't terribly important in my opinion.
I could possibly poke through some of the elaboration discussion, if I can find it, and see if we had actually settled on a body form. Might have been kind of worm-like?
Sometimes I talk to myself and it tricks people into joining in.
That's fine, this and others were done due to lack of activity.
Honestly antibodies is probably the weakest of all the directions that I've suggested, because that would be mainly a response to the stuff getting into the blood while anytime prior such as just sitting in the digestive system or even getting on the teeth or face it can do damage without the antibodies actually coming into action.
The callus scene, which would involve lignin, is probably your strongest option because you would be thickening the epidermis which means it would no longer be quite as important whether or not it takes damage, as well as the lignin inside it would be acting as a binding site for the enzymes to prevent further breakdown.
The callus scene, which would involve lignin, is probably your strongest option because you would be thickening the epidermis which means it would no longer be quite as important whether or not it takes damage, as well as the lignin inside it would be acting as a binding site for the enzymes to prevent further breakdown.
That's a good point
| QUOTE (Disgustedorite @ Feb 1 2023, 02:09 PM) |
| Please take this discussion to a new thread. |
I thought we could continue discussing the critter in this thread?
The other topic, sure.
I'm glad it can continue to be figured out and resubmitted next generation, especially since I would like to make a songsauce of my own once it is.
Plateland Crystals (Planalaminus sp.)
Creator: colddigger
Ancestor: Dome Crystal
Habitat: Koseman, Wallace
Size: 25 cm - 2 m Across
Diet: Photosynthesis, Detritivore
Support: Cell Wall (Chitin)
Respiration: Passive (Lenticels)
Thermoregulation: Ectotherm
Reproduction: Sexual, Airborne Spores
Plateland crystals split from their ancestor the [[Dome Crystal]]. The shell symbiont had through mutation lost some of its developmental organization, resulting in the failure to form the densely arranged supportive middle layer that many crystals rely on for structural support. This inability to form their distinct rigid faces and tower quickly lead to selection of those with growth habits that took advantage of a sprawled body form, which eventually became more sheet-like.
Body Form
Having lost the dense supportive layer inside it, the shell symbiont is far less demanding in materials for growth, and their internal arrangment has now opted for a more airy design. The tissues grow in springy arches or bubble-like formations. This results in a lot of empty space while also allowing for a body that can bounce back from getting stepped on.
This flattened form also had a significant affect on the internal red symbiont. The increase of surface area had resulted in a decreased volume consequently occurring. This meant a loss of a significant amount of red symbiont biomass. Unlike in its ancestor, the central core directly associated with the shell is a simple single sheet of tissue. The filaments extended up and out from the red tissue, used to interface the two symbionts, are able to reach throughout the entire shell and even extend to the surface. Often the red tissue may be slightly exposed from underneath due to the rippled nature of plateland crystal bodies. This rippling is due to different growth rates toward the center of the organism, both on its own and in response to external stimuli. Beneath the organism its roots are thin and cord-like, with mycelioid body thoroughly coating and spreading out from them.
Growth Behavior
Growing flatly, while being a relatively thick obstacle, proved highly successful in the realm of competition. Sprawling across the ground immediately seized territory from other would-be colonizers, and growing outward pressed them against more delicate purple and black flora promptly pushing them over to be smothered and turned into soil. Though not a winning strategy in the wake of true shrubs and trees, it had granted the plateland crystal a domineering relationship with smaller unlignified or unhardened flora when butting heads.
This has given rise to new plateland habitats: open areas densely carpeted with layers of flat crystal flora and dotted with the occasional tree or speckled with black or purple flora that managed to find cracks in the chitin flooring of their home.
Symbiosis
One other form of flora that does quite well in these habitats are [[Marbleflora]]. These simple little purple balls readily colonize the rather flat surfaces of the crystals to enjoy a comparatively competition-free habitat. This colonization is approached in various fashions by plateland crystalshells may respond by growing in a manner that shuttles the balls into crooks, others dimple beneath them, while some of the largest and most successful forms take this to an extreme and literally grow thin layers on top of the purple flora to create holding chambers, in much the same manner as their internal empty spaces. These blisters tend toward translucence due to their thinness. All responses, however, lead to an increased proximity between the marbleflora and the internal red symbiont.
It is through this corralling that the marbleflora become a form of livestock to their landscape. Dorsal mycelioid hyphae spawn outward, exposed, from embedded filaments to infiltrate and consume the marbleflora. Smaller species with less surface area to spare will perform this quickly, as a means to clean themselves before becoming recolonized. Larger species with deeper channels and greater faces will consume them with leisure, the marbleflora budding making up for lost members of their flock. The blister forming species completely encase their stock, this removal from the outside world ends up protecting them from herbivores and the division of their group prevents disease from spreading. The blisters also mean that no red symbiont ends up completely exposed on the upper surface.
Despite forfeiting the dense supportive layers inside their shells, which would have provided them upright stature, the plateland crystals are still [[Crystal Flora]] and so have cell walls of chitin. This makes them more nitrogen-hungry than other flora that rely only on cellulose. To fulfill this need the crystals allow [[Nitrocycle]] microbes to colonize throughout spaces inside the green shell symbiont. Inside these tiny pockets they are safe from microbial predators and the elements, the only thing keeping them in check being the red symbiont filaments that consume them as they multiply. It is in this way that the microbes become a direct nitrogen source for their host. The microbes in turn prefer colonizing most densely near the contact points between the two symbionts where nutrients is exchanged, sapping off whatever they need to proliferate.
Reproduction
Reproduction is comparable to their ancestors, with a hollow or cavity forming beneath their green surface and into the red core. Most species however, unlike their ancestor, create a single large off-center hollow rather than many small ones. This hollow fills with spores of both the green shell and red core symbionts. As it matures and fills the hollow comes under pressure and a visible mound appears in the organism, the face of the crystal above develops a faceted appearance as well. Once the hollow can no longer hold the facets above will split and unfurl at once as the hollow ruptures to release the airborne spores. These ruptured areas become dettached and discarded from the organism to decompose, resulting in a deeply lobed body with a permanently altered growth pattern. Hollow formation typically occurs during Winter in temperate regions or dry seasons where daylength change is minimal. Spore release often happens at or shortly before seasonal transition.
Environmental Influence
Plateland crystals can be considered early secondary succession organisms, preferring areas with already established soil and lacking heavy populations of competition. The exception to this is in established plateland environments where spores will readily colonize with complete disregard for their mature relatives. Much like oysters of Earth growing on top of one another, the crystals will layer as they establish, with baby plateland crystals surviving on rain and dust that settle into the dimple indent they've ended up in on the adult. The new generation remains quite stunted until a snaking root taps the soil found hidden beneath. Once it accesses groundwater growth increases rapidly, the tiny babies overgrowing the plates beneath them, and the generation before them becoming smothered as they're forced to become a lower layer.
As the years pass the light will be sealed away from the lower layers by the new growth above and their green symbiont starved to death. The red symbiont may survive for a while longer without it, but isn't designed for surviving on its own nor in the low oxygen environment it creates for itself and eventually suffocates. At this point the nitrocycle microbes are able to run rampant, as the body of the crystal still acts as a barrier even during early decomposition, further increasing the nitrogen contents of their deceased host as they themselves consume it for energy. Advanced decomposition however exposes them to predatory soil microbes which end up depleting the populations in the lowest layers. Because of this process the soil beneath platelands can actually be quite rich and a boon for any flora that manages to take root through the many flakey layers of decomposing crystal.
| QUOTE (OviraptorFan @ Jan 30 2023, 03:30 PM) |
| Are we sure this would still be the same genus as their ancestor? |
I would say it's probably new
Oh, I kind of thought that that was a reference to a reflex to attempt to grab something that just converts into a kind of a flappy motion of its limbs when I read that.
But now that there's an environmental stimulus for reproduction then maybe it would be a matter of that centerpiece being stimulated by air rushing past and then that triggering the limbs to perform their spore spreading motion.
That's a thought.
But now that there's an environmental stimulus for reproduction then maybe it would be a matter of that centerpiece being stimulated by air rushing past and then that triggering the limbs to perform their spore spreading motion.
That's a thought.
| QUOTE (TheBigDeepCheatsy @ Jan 29 2023, 10:10 PM) | ||
Alrighty. I feel like the fused toes should be played/explored upon later maybe... |
Yeah it could actually result in the creation of something akin to our forearms or four legs where we can twist the end of it while maintaining a lot of strength. That would be an interesting thing, because then the descendants of this could have graspy digits like halfway up their leg and then have this big old forearm thing on the bottom with a single hoof.
Looking over briefly what I had written in my sleep depressed state, I'm wondering is maybe doing something like that would allow the grasshof loop to not act as a permanent bind on the limb, but rather something that can be engaged and disengaged as a muscle is held tight...
I'm wondering if that were the case, that it was able to be engaged and disengaged, that that would allow at least the earlier members of the piper that had been moving rapidly into this new form of movement, to be able to ease into it when engaging, while also being able to apply a more typical manner of flight when desired. Since they would be larger and a little slower and the two methods are different manners of moving around in the air that would be applied to different situations.
Once the method was fine tuned then permanent engagement could be a possible option by shortening that cord, if that were to be considered.
Just vague thoughts.
I'm wondering if that were the case, that it was able to be engaged and disengaged, that that would allow at least the earlier members of the piper that had been moving rapidly into this new form of movement, to be able to ease into it when engaging, while also being able to apply a more typical manner of flight when desired. Since they would be larger and a little slower and the two methods are different manners of moving around in the air that would be applied to different situations.
Once the method was fine tuned then permanent engagement could be a possible option by shortening that cord, if that were to be considered.
Just vague thoughts.
So I understand U-joints but I'm in no mental state to be able to visualize what you are describing in a biological manner, when you have time would you be able to draw this out in a simple way showing how it all fits together?
I looked back to read the initial description and I think that I got something backwards when I was describing my sudden thoughts on the grashof loop, from the description it sounds like it's the femur moving forward and back while there is a tie attached to the Albert joint holding it in place in some way. Which I suppose rather than just having a twitch action it would be kind of a contract and hold, or cramping of the glute muscle in order to perform that.
I looked back to read the initial description and I think that I got something backwards when I was describing my sudden thoughts on the grashof loop, from the description it sounds like it's the femur moving forward and back while there is a tie attached to the Albert joint holding it in place in some way. Which I suppose rather than just having a twitch action it would be kind of a contract and hold, or cramping of the glute muscle in order to perform that.
So I am currently highly sleep deprived, but I just had a thought regarding the grasshof loop since there was a hullabaloo regarding that.
What if it was an extreme fasciation of a patagium behind the first knee, I guess there's only really one knee on these limbs, and that fasciation led to either one or two of the glutes on the torso. So if these muscles were to hypercontract in a twitching form as muscles are capable of doing if anyone were to attempt simply twitching a muscle without particularly moving a limb, this rapid twitching would be able to pull along that length and cause motion, perhaps.
Since the glutes are in some way related to regular flight motion in the ancestors, simply because they are muscles attached to the limb, it's the only limb that's being used, then there movement and use would happen during regular attempts at flight. And maybe even this twitching motion triggering movement in the wing in possibly a fluttering manner or just what have you without the use of other muscles, or simply keeping the other muscles in a springy form, could allow for the development of a more significant system. Maybe not true muscle, but possibly some other form of tissue that allows the application of force.
That's really comprehendible, I don't really know.
Oh drat I think I got something backwards here
What if it was an extreme fasciation of a patagium behind the first knee, I guess there's only really one knee on these limbs, and that fasciation led to either one or two of the glutes on the torso. So if these muscles were to hypercontract in a twitching form as muscles are capable of doing if anyone were to attempt simply twitching a muscle without particularly moving a limb, this rapid twitching would be able to pull along that length and cause motion, perhaps.
Since the glutes are in some way related to regular flight motion in the ancestors, simply because they are muscles attached to the limb, it's the only limb that's being used, then there movement and use would happen during regular attempts at flight. And maybe even this twitching motion triggering movement in the wing in possibly a fluttering manner or just what have you without the use of other muscles, or simply keeping the other muscles in a springy form, could allow for the development of a more significant system. Maybe not true muscle, but possibly some other form of tissue that allows the application of force.
That's really comprehendible, I don't really know.
Oh drat I think I got something backwards here
Ligaments are playing a pretty significant role in maintaining the stability and functionality of joints, I'd say that that actually plays a larger role than the muscles that are attached to any of it.
That's a major player in why, to get back to food, it takes such as significant (relatively speaking) amount of force alongside a tactile pop in order for me to pull apart the limbs of birds after I've already severed all the muscles from their attachment points.
The muscles certainly do play their role in holding things together, though.
Regarding the picture on the evolution of the wrist, I think the first two are better equivalent as opposed to that third one at the bottom, I think that the other images that I've seen seem to relate to those a lot better. I don't think it necessarily is supposed to represent the addition of new bones, but I would not be surprised if it was found that more toe bones had occurred or something of that nature in the later fossils. The main focus would be on the interactions of the colored bones to display how the development of the forearm and upper arm occurred out of bones that were previously not fused and also to indicate how the base of the wrist would have come about.
I wish I could find the other images, because it really illustrated well the many steps that were possibly taken in order to achieve it and how the wrist itself came together to form its shape from what was previously a rather stretched out length the bones.
That's a major player in why, to get back to food, it takes such as significant (relatively speaking) amount of force alongside a tactile pop in order for me to pull apart the limbs of birds after I've already severed all the muscles from their attachment points.
The muscles certainly do play their role in holding things together, though.
Regarding the picture on the evolution of the wrist, I think the first two are better equivalent as opposed to that third one at the bottom, I think that the other images that I've seen seem to relate to those a lot better. I don't think it necessarily is supposed to represent the addition of new bones, but I would not be surprised if it was found that more toe bones had occurred or something of that nature in the later fossils. The main focus would be on the interactions of the colored bones to display how the development of the forearm and upper arm occurred out of bones that were previously not fused and also to indicate how the base of the wrist would have come about.
I wish I could find the other images, because it really illustrated well the many steps that were possibly taken in order to achieve it and how the wrist itself came together to form its shape from what was previously a rather stretched out length the bones.
| QUOTE (Disgustedorite @ Jan 30 2023, 10:10 PM) |
| Are you implying that you think if you relaxed all your muscles, your elbows could bend perpendicular to the joint without breaking something such as the connective tissue that keeps it within the solid bone tracks that make it roll as a hinge in the first place? |
I think it's in reference to our wrists not our elbows...
But I guess the "muscles restraining side to side motion" need clarifying... Since it still doesn't quite make sense in that context either.
The mobile nature of our wrists and ankles are actually due to the clumping and attaching of multiple short bones that were originally in a long line as far as I know, as opposed to the direct change of a hinge into the condyloid form they have today...
Though I am not that familiar with it.
This is an okay image but I've seen better ones in the past.
It actually makes me wonder if the first segment in the walking toe could be used in order to give greater rotation to the wing toe.
Though I am not that familiar with it.
This is an okay image but I've seen better ones in the past.
It actually makes me wonder if the first segment in the walking toe could be used in order to give greater rotation to the wing toe.
I vote in favor of keeping the word favorite because capiris need that.
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