Interesting challenge, how are you planning to communicate it? Is that going to be a general description in very general terms or in a specific context like mimicking other species, or more of a specific list of species wide onomatopoeias?

QUOTE (colddigger @ Dec 1 2022, 12:14 AM)

Ah, given their ears are still erect and seem capable of "looking around" via echolocation, assuming the clicking isn't dampened by the direction of the mouth, it makes sense that they would remain rather slack unless disturbed. I doubt the ground would matter too much regarding echolocation...

I've wondered about that too.

not just the clicks but vocalization in general. Like taste and smell it's something we don't deal with much because sound isn't part of the artwork, but I imagine they hum and purr and click and gurgle, if they make complex sounds they might be very raspy, relying on vocalizations that use the vibration of the air around the throat and tongue rather then air existing the mouth.

I think I've specified this for the rockshorian lineage, but I would expect that with a few exceptions (like the songsauce), most saucebacks need to deal with the seperation of vocalization and respiration. It's a problem with many interesting solutions IMO. How about tusk tapping? Or teeth drumming? Or jaw knocks in the hearthead descendents?

For saucebacks with sight social communication might rely more on body language and dancing, I tapped that just a little bit with the ophan lineage, but there's may more room to explore.

I rarely get to say that about anything I write but going by that interpretation I think dangling communicates it quite well because that interpretation isn't entirely far off: They don't hunt anything on land and can barely run, and they react to the sound or scent of danger by sitting down with their cohorts and pretending to be rocks until the danger goes away.

Unless they are caught and are under attack, vector information doesn't matter much, and line of sight doesn't factor at all. Echolocation on land is only really used to get to know the environment, and the ground is a perfectly decent perspective from which to do that.

Probably caught for Naucean Thanksgiving

To clarify, the main limitation of its use as armor isn't the layering but the umbrella-like way the shell grows from the sauce in the roofback lineage.

For the rockshorian lineage that's more relevant for female shells that expand outwards into nests, as the one depicted. Male shells still emerge from the sauce but are held tightly to the body and are overall thicker, mostly as a defense against each other, though venturing on their own also makes them more vulnerable to predators...

The real mystery: why do they keep evolving camouflage and defenses if nothing includes them in their diet? I believe that they are quite delicious too, with an excellent texture.

I imagine it's meat is somewhere between shrimp and goose in texture, maybe with a touch of quinoa flavor due to the prevalence of swarmers in their diet. And once you are done you have a bowl for purple salad

Yes

Its use as armor is limited. That said, we actually use layering to the advantage of armor IRL:



We do the same with bulletproof glass, tank armor, and even ancient fortifications like the walls of Metzada layered a sandwich of bricks and sand.

A single solid structure is a medium for cracks to expand across. By breaking armor down into layers, you restrict the expansion of the damage done by impact.

Turtle armor achieves the same results differently, by letting an area crush a latticework of scaffolding without expanding the breakage to other areas past the initial impact


As a general rule, you don't design sturdy things to not break, you design sturdy things to break in the least harmful way possible.

QUOTE (colddigger @ Nov 28 2022, 05:55 AM)

I guess I could change the size Though genus groups seem to tend toward being pretty loose and wild in sizes anyway. Could just call it an exception too.

I was going for the other direction - I meant you should be able to include Iiteum so that it makes sense. Including it in the description could also work.

Please don't change the size, we are one insular dwarfism skip away from 500um rotifer size sauceplankton! That's absolutely awesome in all ways but literal.

I don't know why you island chains couldn't have genus groups, but I find island dwarfism without an island as at least one of the habitats very confusing.

Also, let's imagine the life of a Hawaiian botanist trying to work with such a rule IRL… Just imagine her day, going out to the field, trying to classify and describe their findings, trying to write research papers, followed by the talks they have to go with their cardiologist, her stress medication regime, the sanity waning day by day, the nail biting and hair pulling, the helplessness of their partner reaching a breaking point leaving them to wake up in an empty home, imagine her reaching the point where she stops trying to take care of herself, dedicating herself entirely to her work, only to one day loose it all and receive that research grant cancelation email, using the last of her private funds to try and keep going, but there wasn't much… Is that what we want for her? If only there was something that could have being done, some change… Alas, island chains can't have their own genus groups.

re: Torso proportions & neck thickness for chewing cud



(Admittedly, if there ever was a questionable submission to that Sol 3 project....)

Given that the giraffe's neck is thinner but can still push up the cud, and i t's torso proportions are nearly identical to the Quillyn, the Quillyn seem well equipped for their diet.

QUOTE

Similarity between the hair and feather architectonics: (a) the ring-forming cuticle of the base of a guard hair of Galemys pyrenaicus ; ( the cuticle of barbules of the downy part of a contour feather of Ixobrychus minutus ; © heterogeneous cortex on a cross section of a blue barb of a contour feather vane of Amazona leucocephala ; (d) pigment granules on the walls of medulla cavities of a barb of a contour feather vane of Vanellus vanellus ; (e) the medulla of a spine of Erethizon dorsatum ; (f) the medulla of a spine of a barb of a contour feather vane of Columba livia ; (g) the perforated medulla of a guard hair of Viverra megaspila ; (h) the perforated medulla of a blue barb of a contour feather vane of Amazona leucocephala. Scale bars: (a–c, f) 10 µ m; (d, g, h) 1 µ m; (e) 100 µ m.

-Source

.........needs a more thorough deep dive but it sounds like at least some of the structures that let feather barbules capture air bubbles to produce blue light scattering are also similar to the rings of hair cuticles.

I also question how universal would the rarity of blue hair pigments be, especially on a planet where everything seems to evolve purple hair pigments without difficulty matching with the flora very early on, and those pigments have to deal with an even shorter wavelength. I think it's more reasonable for our arguments to account for the history of life on sagan, even if it means handwaving short wavelength pigments, maybe stemming from different ways protosagania builds pigments.

edit: Wait do cephalopods use blue pigments Isn't that just their blood? (I am pretty sure that the example was brought up about the general color changing abilities this lineage and cephalopods share and wasn't specifically about cephalopod blue pigments, but now I am curious, need to check it out later)

Approval Checklist:

Art:
Art Present?:y
Art clear?:y
Gen number?:y
All limbs shown?:y
Reasonably Comparable to Ancestor?:y
Realistic additions?:y

Name:
Binomial Taxonomic Name?:y
Creator?:y

Ancestor:
Listed?:y
What changes?:
External?: Smaller, Smooth bark
Internal?: air pockets in megaspores
Behavioral/Mental?:
Are Changes Realistic?: y
New Genus Needed?: y

Habitat:
Type?: 2 (temperate, subpolar)
Flavor?: 3 (Woodlands, Plains, Beaches)
Connected?: y
Wildcard?:


Size:
Same as Ancestor?:n
Within range?:y
Exception?: Island dwarfism

Support:
Same as Ancestor?:y
Does It Fit Habitat?:y
Reasonable changes (if any)?: y
Other?:

Diet:
Same as Ancestor?: y
Transition Rule?:
Reasonable changes (if any)?:

Respiration:
Same as Ancestor?:y
Does It Fit Habitat?:y
Reasonable changes (if any)?:
Other?:

Thermoregulation:
Same as Ancestor?:y
Does It Fit Habitat?:y
Reasonable changes (if any)?:
Other?: Heliothermy, word of the day

Reproduction:
Same as Ancestor?:y
Does It Fit Habitat?:y
Reasonable changes (if any)?:
Other?:

Description:
Length?: Decent
Capitalized correctly?: Y
Replace/Split from ancestor?: split
Other?:

Opinion: Approved

A potential candidate for the island adventure challenge

Approval Checklist:
Art:
Art Present?: y
Art clear?: y
Gen number?:y
All limbs shown?:y
Reasonably Comparable to Ancestor?:y
Realistic additions?:y

Name:
Binomial Taxonomic Name?: y
Creator?: y


Ancestor:
Listed?: y
What changes?:
External?: fruiting body, plate segmentation
Internal?: water pumping, root storage system... the line between changes and clarification can get fuzzy, classifying them as changes to be safe but probably also clarifying existing but previously undetailed systems.
Behavioral/Mental?: selective defense
Are Changes Realistic?: yep
New Genus Needed?: y

Habitat:
Type?: 2 (Polar, Subpolar)
Flavor?: 3 (Beach, Mixed Scrub, Wetlands)
Connected?: y
Wildcard?: n

Size:
Same as Ancestor?: n
Within range?: y
Exception?: within floral range

Support:
Same as Ancestor?: y, clarified
Does It Fit Habitat?: y
Reasonable changes (if any)?: visible segmentation, flexing towards light sources
Other?:

Diet:
Same as Ancestor?: y
Transition Rule?: n/a
Reasonable changes (if any)?:

Respiration:
Same as Ancestor?:y, clarified
Does It Fit Habitat?:y
Reasonable changes (if any)?:
Other?:

Thermoregulation:
Same as Ancestor?: y, clarified
Does It Fit Habitat?:y
Reasonable changes (if any)?:
Other?:

Reproduction:
Same as Ancestor?: n
Does It Fit Habitat?: like a boat on the river
Reasonable changes (if any)?: recovering spore dispersal, fruiting body
Other?:

Description:
Length?: Excellent (all our entries are stubs now).
Capitalized correctly?: The Slari bog makes for a fine capital, lots of tourism oppertunities.
Replace/Split from ancestor?: split
Other?:

Opinion: Approved

QUOTE (colddigger @ Nov 26 2022, 07:27 PM)

"It must be mentioned that these doctor pickle compounds, though less devastating when taking affect in comparison to their ancestral chemistry, are considerably more effective over all in their ability to defend their creator, being able to burn or irritate mucus membrane and wet tissue in general. The cellulosebane fumigant of old had acted in a more selective manner toward living things that relied on wood, or cellulose, destroying tissue to the point of death. Having been coupled with the gratuitous and unrestrained release of spore clouds the airborne weapon of the cellulosebane had forced a disastrous selection process on its environment, Plents, Purple Flora, and Black Flora were destroyed indiscriminately through entire biomes. This kind of action, coupled with such a specialized weapon, meant creating a world filled with hungry fauna completely unfazed by their clouds of doom and with nothing to eat but the crystals themselves. The doctor pickle has side stepped such folly, as had been previously described, with application being more reserved in release, more general in what it can affect, and less devastating in results." How's that? I would just slap it under the original paragraph. I've also edited some wrong words in the mitosis and reproduction sections.

Excellent

While it shouldn't disqualify it, the only thing I would like added is to redescribe the ancestral cellulosebane fumigant and its effects on plent respiration in the defense section.

My reasoning is that while digging through the ancestral lineage of any species someone wants to work with is a necessary norm for almost all sagan 4 species, especially for those of us who like playing with anatomy and internal systems, here the description is so close to being an exception and standing fully on its own, providing 99% of a full course that lets anyone know everything they'd need to know about working with the species and future descendants, covering everything from its biomechanical systems to its evolutionary symbiotic origin and embryonic development. the only thing that requires prior sagan 4 knowledge - the remaining 1% - is the cellulosebane. I believe that if you covered that, you could practically give this to a complete newbie with no experience in sagan 4 and they'd still be able to understand how everything works and how to evolve from it.

Also, I love the animated mental image of its walls rippling throughout the day in response to light.

Lost In The Doctor Pickle Ward won best Naucean film of the eon, we can't change the name now it will ruin a cult classic.

I'm curious how does the PHB coating affect leaf eating browsers? Would it be toxic or pass through or need some special adaptations to be broken down? Should there be an accompanying PHB digestive bacteria for a browser that fed on volleypom leaves?

Fixed
The biomes are connected, basically forming a north facing horseshoe around the Wallace shoreline, with some inward growth along the riversides.

Fixed.

Fixed.

Fixed.

Fixed. It does make sense to me that there should be at least some heart system pumping blood through the gills, which should count as active. A pet theory of mine is that the vestigial remains of the poison glands who's network reached the spikes (that evolved into the plates that became the spiral shell that became the water tank) could be the basis for the respiratory and maybe even the circulatory systems...

But that's just in terms of what makes sense to me, I would give a tentacle and a shell ear to reach some sort of detailed consensus about the internals between all the team members who brought uktanks to life.

QUOTE (Evolutionincarnate @ Oct 22 2022, 12:18 AM)

QUOTE (Jarlaxle @ Oct 21 2022, 05:28 PM) QUOTE (Disgustedorite @ Oct 21 2022, 11:05 PM) I'm pretty sure the issue is that the mechanism doesn't actually work in the form presented nor is it even remotely what rabbits do so you don't have that justification. I am greatful... That our education system includes basic high school level physics, still kind of jelly that american students operate on frogs though. Anything more specific for me to address? the problem is that rabbits have no linkages like any described in the paper beforehand or anything similar to what you describe the anatomy you have described doesnt make sense because your having a muscle form a link that needs to be rigid in order to do what you say it does the biceps femoris in rabbits just pulls the leg back and the lower leg toward the origin at the pelvis

...Which restricts the distance at the back of the foot from the pelvis and forces it into circular motion, the only force being applied on it is tensile. It pulls and gets pulled, it doesn't need to be rigid because it doesn't push.

If for some reason you've tried reversing the action and energizing the visorbill by tying the base of the hip attachment of the muscle to a motor thereby making the crank the source of the motion, then the flexibility of the bar and its inability to push would be a problem. Thankfully, nothing the visorbill currently does is so torturous.

QUOTE (Disgustedorite @ Oct 21 2022, 11:05 PM)

I'm pretty sure the issue is that the mechanism doesn't actually work in the form presented nor is it even remotely what rabbits do so you don't have that justification.

I am greatful... That our education system includes basic high school level physics, still kind of jelly that american students operate on frogs though.

Anything more specific for me to address?

QUOTE (Evolutionincarnate @ Oct 21 2022, 06:45 PM)

QUOTE (Jarlaxle @ Oct 21 2022, 05:00 AM) I placed the bicep femoris wrap under gastrocnemius, changed the bone names, fixed the bones that shouldn't have looked like they came from fusing other bones, and the mysterious knee caps that apparently came from nowhere have now left us to retire in nowhere. what is the crank here? what solid structure is that representing?

The crank is the narrow band of muscle at the end of the muscle wrap acting as an elastic band - perhaps slingshot might be a better comparison - it can only pull or be pulled and restricts the motion at its into circular motion, luckily for the visorbill at no point during the flap or hop cycle does it need to push.

Were you given the explanation prior to the last description update in the OP or was it based on the current description? I'm not expecting that you'd read everything prior to joining - that wouldn't be a fair expectation -but I do need to know if the last clarification regarding the nature of the crank isn't doing its job of conveying the information.

QUOTE (colddigger @ Oct 21 2022, 07:43 PM)

https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-3190/abf744 Is this helpful? I haven't looked into what's being discussed here too thoroughly, but it's something to do with comparing limbs to moving contraptions, and skimming this it seems to be a similar topic.

Ooh, only skimming it for now in a yet to be fully caffeinated brain state, but from first impression that is both spoilery for existing evil future plans and potentially inspirational for more evil future plans.

The broad overview of 4 link mechanisms is applicable – and they are making the same disclaimers I keep needing to make here regarding flexible links vs rigid links - but the specific examples they go into in-depth are not the same ones I am using for the visorbil.

We absolutely need to tap them in the future of sagan though, saving this for a more thorough reread.

edit:
Updated the anatomy diagram in the description, replaced tibia with tibiotarsus and metatarsal with cannon bone, hopefully we'll stick with these bone labels and make them... cannonical.

I placed the bicep femoris wrap under gastrocnemius, changed the bone names, fixed the bones that shouldn't have looked like they came from fusing other bones, and the mysterious knee caps that apparently came from nowhere have now left us to retire in nowhere.