I changed the genus

Yes, you are supposed to repost. OviFan and Cube both had to, and everyone who joined before the limbo did.

Huh, I thought the moose was closer to 4 meters long. Guess it's about the same size and lives the same amount.

moose is bigger and lives the same amount

QUOTE (colddigger @ Jul 6 2021, 10:51 PM)

I think the stickyball would have something more like liverwort rhizoids rather than full blown mycelium, The shrooms would have something more similar superficially. I'm mainly curious about how it comes about that they achieve sexual reproduction through their rhizoids seemingly in convergence with mushrooms. Mushroom sex being rather complex. Maybe the formation of a denser cluster of cells derived from the spore forming clusters of their very old ancestors, intermingling Like a pair of leopard slugs and allowing haploid cells to cross and merge. That could be fun because you would be able to tell which shroom is clonal and which not because the new generation would have that woody nut at the base that they grow out of.

As stated by Hydro when Irinya protested stickyballs replacing their ancestor, stickyballs are a ball of undifferentiated cells. They do not have rhizomes.

Could you elaborate on what you mean with that intermingling paragraph?

QUOTE (TheBigDeepCheatsy @ Jul 7 2021, 12:20 AM)

QUOTE (OviraptorFan @ Jul 6 2021, 05:01 PM) QUOTE (Disgustedorite @ Jul 6 2021, 07:55 PM) I don't think explaining sexual conjugation is necessary. It's easily googleable. I feel like its still a good idea to add it in here. So that it is not necessary for someone to look it up on google. Precisely >Double checks< Approved

Please read the conversation going on. A different issue came up.

Stickyballs didn't have roots in the first place and shrooms were never vascular. Stickyballs were always just cell colonies (Hydro said such when Irinya protested them replacing their ancestor), and shrooms are an independent origin of multicellular plant life. There is no reason why their "digesting roots" (which honestly sounds like something Hydro would make up to describe mycelium if he doesn't know the name) would be anything like vascular roots. I'll go ahead and rewrite that part, though. @colddigger

I don't think explaining sexual conjugation is necessary. It's easily googleable.

approved

yeah, approved

Approval Checklist:
Art:
Art Present?: Y
Art clear?: Y
Gen number?: Y
All limbs shown?: Y
Reasonably Comparable to Ancestor?: Y
Realistic additions?: Y

Name:
Binomial Taxonomic Name?: Y
Creator?: Y

Ancestor:
Listed?: Y
What changes?:

• External?: Extensive armor covering, larger size, mobile osteoderms
• Internal?: Gigantothermy, powerful jaws
• Behavioral/Mental?: Wait/ambush hunting style, solitary as adult

Are Changes Realistic?: Y
New Genus Needed?: Y (Already done)

Habitat:
Type?: 1/2 (Polar)
Flavor?: 1/3 (Arid)
Connected?: Y
Wildcard?: N/A

Size:
Same as Ancestor?: N (Much Larger)
Within range?: Y
Exception?: "No competition" clause

Support:
Same as Ancestor?: Y
Reasonable changes (if any)?: N/A
Other?: Ancestor needs to be updated

Diet:
Same as Ancestor?: Y
Transition Rule?: N/A
Reasonable changes (if any)?: Y (Expanded)

Respiration:
Same as Ancestor?: Y
Does It Fit Habitat?: Y
Reasonable changes (if any)?: N/A
Other?: N/A

Thermoregulation:
Same as Ancestor?: N
Does It Fit Habitat?: Y
Reasonable changes (if any)?: Y
Other?: N/A

Reproduction:
Same as Ancestor?: Y
Does It Fit Habitat?: Y
Reasonable changes (if any)?: N/A
Other?: N/A

Description:
Length?: Good
Capitalized correctly?: Y
Replace/Split from ancestor?: Y (Split)
Other?: N/A

Status: Approved

Approval Checklist:
Art:
Art Present?: Y
Art clear?: Y
Gen number?: Y
All limbs shown?: Y
Reasonably Comparable to Ancestor?: Y
Realistic additions?: Y

Name:
Binomial Taxonomic Name?: Y
Creator?: Y

Ancestor:
Listed?: Y
What changes?:

• External?: Coloration, mandible shape, tail thickness, sprawled posture, smaller ears, closable nostrils and spiracles
• Internal?: Constant mandible growth, breath-holding and low oxygen tolerance
• Behavioral/Mental?: Burrowing, no longer forms packs, pair bonding

Are Changes Realistic?: Y
New Genus Needed?: Y (Already Done)
Note: Sprawling legs evolving this fast are in line with established sauceback anatomy

Habitat:
Type?: 2/2 (Temperate and Tropical)
Flavor?: 1/3 (Rainforest)
Connected?: Y
Wildcard?: N/A

Size:
Same as Ancestor?: N (Larger)
Within range?: Y
Exception?: N/A

Support:
Same as Ancestor?: Y
Reasonable changes (if any)?: N/A
Other?: Ancestor needs to be updated

Diet:
Same as Ancestor?: Y
Transition Rule?: N/A
Reasonable changes (if any)?: Y (Expanded, subterranean food)

Respiration:
Same as Ancestor?: Y
Does It Fit Habitat?: Y
Reasonable changes (if any)?: N/A
Other?: N/A

Thermoregulation:
Same as Ancestor?: Y
Does It Fit Habitat?: Y
Reasonable changes (if any)?: N/A
Other?: N/A

Reproduction:
Same as Ancestor?: Y
Does It Fit Habitat?: Y
Reasonable changes (if any)?: Reworded
Other?: N/A

Description:
Length?: Good
Capitalized correctly?: Y
Replace/Split from ancestor?: Y (Partial Replace)
Other?: N/A

Status: Approved

I was about to do a checklist, but then I noticed something. I don't know how, but I think you managed to misinterpret the ancestor even though you created that too. The ancestor appears to have a toothy mouth between the two plates (and other descendants reflect this), which are instead placed like a two-part helmet here.

Approval Checklist:
Art:
Art Present?: Y
Art clear?: Y
Gen number?: Y
All limbs shown?: Y
Reasonably Comparable to Ancestor?: Y
Realistic additions?: Y

Name:
Binomial Taxonomic Name?: Y
Creator?: Y

Ancestor:
Listed?: Y
What changes?:

• External?: Tail foot posture, different coloration, larger claws
• Internal?: Improved ear, continuously growing teeth
• Behavioral/Mental?: Kicking defense, vocalization, herding, mating competition, new nesting behavior

Are Changes Realistic?: Y
New Genus Needed?: Y (already done)
Other: Corrects misinterpretation present in its direct ancestor

Habitat:
Type?: 2/2 (Temperate and Tropical)
Flavor?: 1/3 (Rainforest)
Connected?: Y
Wildcard?: N

Size:
Same as Ancestor?: Y
Within range?: Y
Exception?: N/A

Support:
Same as Ancestor?: Y
Reasonable changes (if any)?: N/A
Other?: N/A

Diet:
Same as Ancestor?: Y
Transition Rule?: N/A
Reasonable changes (if any)?: Y (expanded)

Respiration:
Same as Ancestor?: Y
Does It Fit Habitat?: Y
Reasonable changes (if any)?: N/A
Other?: Ancestor needs to be updated

Thermoregulation:
Same as Ancestor?: Probably
Does It Fit Habitat?: Y
Reasonable changes (if any)?: N/A
Other?: Ancestor needs to be updated

Reproduction:
Same as Ancestor?: Y
Does It Fit Habitat?: Y
Reasonable changes (if any)?: N/A
Other?: N/A

Description:
Length?: Good
Capitalized correctly?: Y
Replace/Split from ancestor?: Y (Replace)
Other?: N/A

Status: Approved

Approval Checklist:
Art:
Art Present?: Y
Art clear?: Y
Gen number?: Y
All limbs shown?: Y
Reasonably Comparable to Ancestor?: Y
Realistic additions?: Y

Name:
Binomial Taxonomic Name?: Y
Creator?: Y

Ancestor:
Listed?: Y
What changes?:

• External?: Larger size, thicker limbs, different coloration, chest feathers, blunt mandibles
• Internal?: Longer body cavity, iguanodont-like teeth
• Behavioral/Mental?: No longer a predator, less social

Are Changes Realistic?: Y

New Genus Needed?: Y (already done)

Habitat:
Type?: 2/2 (Tropical and Montane)
Flavor?: 2/3 (Grassland and Scrubland)
Connected?: Y
Wildcard?: N/A

Size:
Same as Ancestor?: N (larger)
Within range?: Y (uses exception)
Exception?: Y ("No competition" clause)

Support:
Same as Ancestor?: Y
Reasonable changes (if any)?: N/A
Other?: N/A

Diet:
Same as Ancestor?: N
Transition Rule?: am I just supposed to say whether it follows it (it does) or
Reasonable changes (if any)?: Y

Respiration:
Same as Ancestor?: Y
Does It Fit Habitat?: Y
Reasonable changes (if any)?: N/A
Other?: N/A

Thermoregulation:
Same as Ancestor?: Y
Does It Fit Habitat?: Y
Reasonable changes (if any)?: N/A
Other?: N/A

Reproduction:
Same as Ancestor?: Y
Does It Fit Habitat?: Y
Reasonable changes (if any)?: N/A
Other?: N/A

Description:
Length?: Good
Capitalized correctly?: Y
Replace/Split from ancestor?: Y (split)
Other?: N/A

Status: Approved

There are animals in real life that have cellulose-based exoskeletons. They are able to grow them continuously without shedding.

QUOTE (colddigger @ Jul 5 2021, 04:38 PM)

These guys having pupa sounds reasonable to me given how vague the description of their development was from the ancestor. Having only one example of that lifestyle occurring in earth makes it difficult to back okay methods of it's development. My biggest problem with it is the lack of detail describing how it happened. But I also have problems with no description of how these breath either.

The evolution of pupas in insects is very specific and very much documented, as the transitional forms are still extant, and it would be implausible for this lineage to take an even remotely similar route for one major reason: cellulose-based exoskeletons can grow and do not shed. It is impossible for anything developmentally similar to pupa to evolve in something that doesn't shed, because a pupa only works because of something that only animals that shed can do--that is, grow entire new body parts under their skin.

Unless the creator of the first pupating species can plausibly explain both how the pupas evolved and why it was advantageous to do so over gradual metamorphosis like a frog (which was the ancestral state, mind you), which I don't believe is possible, I think that all descendants must lose the pupal stage because it is evolutionarily disadvantageous and if possible it should be completely retconned out of the lineage.

The decreased lifespan was a mutation in the particular population of their ancestor that they evolved from. It's effectively an unintentional change. At present, they would have some predators, but their range is nowhere near as narrow and it looks like the apex predator of the region is the Camoback, which is cold-blooded. As they aren't at constant risk of predation anymore, spikes aren't exactly priority and were lost in favor of having more energy and resources to spare for doing other things, like maintaining their brains and producing the calcified grit used in the tail cap.

I'll make some edits. As for picks, I meant pick like in toothpick, for picking food out of things.

QUOTE (Coolsteph @ Jul 5 2021, 09:43 AM)

", which is based primarily on how good they are at tricking one another." All the other things are pretty plausible: this fauna collects New Caledonian crows, raccoons, foxes, and scrub jay traits together. However, having a social hierarchy based on tricking each other is odd, and needs more explanation. To rise in rank, wouldn't they have to be observed by others? Wouldn't others have to remember being tricked? If they were tricked, wouldn't they trust the 'jester' less and be more aggressive or likely to distrust it in the future?

My intent was tricking in good fun, like keeping a piece of food out of reach for a bit but then giving it back. Ones that are just mean or malicious are chased off.

Violet Kitshrox (Hastalopex petrocauda)
Creator: Disgustedorite
Ancestor: Maineiac Rivershrog
Habitat: Maineiac Boreal, Maineiac Rocky, Maineiac Alpine, Maineiac High Grassland, Maineiac Chaparral, Maineiac Temperate Woodland, Maineiac Volcanic
Size: 70 cm long
Support: Endoskeleton (Bone)
Diet: Omnivore (Pedesorm, Armored Pedesorm, Mountain Pedesorm, Harvester Pedesorm, Miner Pedesorm, Srugeing, Aossi, Scaled Srugeing, Metamorphling Gilltail, Communal Janit, juvenile Roaming Oropede, Karybdos, Gliding Gushstrider, Gushitos, Frosty Sauceback larvae, Sormlicker Sauceback larvae, Prutabula fruit, Prutarbor fruit, Fuzzpile berries, Pilunoroot fruit, Cloudswarmers, Hair Nimbus colonies, Pionferruses, Parasitic Floats, Teacup Saucebacks, Minikruggs, Silkruggs, Xenobees, Xenowasps, Dartirs, Sapworms, Supershrooms, Sapshrooms, fruit of Cryobowls), Ovivore (Logcrusher, Corvisnapper, Camoback, Fruitsnapper, Sormsnapper, Mountsnapper), Scavenger, Kleptoparasite
Respiration: Active (Lungs)
Thermoregulation: Endotherm (Fur)
Reproduction: Sexual (Male and Female, Live Birth, Placental, Milk)

The violet kitshrox split from its ancestor and moved away from the rivers. It has lost most of its osteoderms, as it isn't at nearly the same risk of predation across its whole range as its ancestor was, and its tail saw has turned into a rough gritty lump with a sandpaper-like texture. Its horn has been replaced with a short, rough, cornified boss. As nest-making is highly strenuous, it has shifted away from the elaborate nests its ancestor constructed, no longer cutting down trees and instead focusing on using its rough tail cap to carve fine tools out of sticks and bones. Its diet has expanded to include flora once again and it has become a prominent opportunist across Maineiac.

The violet kitshrox’s intelligence is not wasted in its new niche. Convergent with the only somewhat related twigfisher shrog, it has shifted towards greater dexterity with smaller tools. Picks, hooks, wedges, knives, and more are carved from wood or bone and used to obtain food which would normally be inaccessible to a creature of its size. For example, a common obstacle to obtaining food might be that it’s out of reach, such as being at the bottom of a deep hole or stuck between two fallen logs; a violet kitshrox faced with such an obstacle will modify a stick to have a hook or barb at the end and proceed to use it to fish out the morsel. Broad shaping is done using its tail cap, while fine details are done using its teeth.

The violet kitshrox is capable of eating a wide variety of different things in its environment, such as small fauna, eggs, fruit, shrooms, and carrion. Its diet includes some iron fauna and flora, and as a result its dung is rich in iron. It will often steal eggs from right under their parents using complicated and varied tactics for distraction and deception.

Violet kitshrox behavior when interacting with non-prey organisms can be likened to that of a typical anthropomorphic fox. They are quite cunning and often steal food from other species, using similar strategies to the ones they use to steal eggs. They will sometimes repeatedly steal from the same individual dozens of times by coming up with different tactics for distracting or deceiving them. They are very playful and mischievous even when there might not be an immediate or obvious reward for bothering another creature, actively occupying their fairly large brains with trouble-making to stave off boredom while alone.

Trouble-making does not end when a violet kitshrox is with its social group, called a skulk. Though still far from hyper-social, violet kitshroxes have begun to construct somewhat of a social hierarchy, which is based primarily on how good they are at tricking one another. The best trickster, called a jester, is not necessarily a good leader; however, the jester usually has greater reproductive success, as the most impressive feats of trickery indicate great dexterity and problem-solving skills, which are useful for survival and therefore considered attractive. A good jester cannot go too far with its tricks, however; trickery is only regarded as "good" as long as it isn't drawn out and any stolen items are promptly returned, and constant or poorly-timed deception is generally not favored. A kitshrox that doesn’t know when to stop will ultimately cause the rest of the skulk to become frustrated and eventually chase it out. Kitshrox trickery, and all the subtleties to doing it right, can be likened to the primate concept of humor, though it is not identical.

Violet kitshroxes are somewhat more comfortable with close quarters than most shrogs. A collection of natural caves, hollow logs, and basket-like nests made of tree branches scattered across a region no more than 100 meters wide houses the entire skulk, which can have as many as 30 members. However, they usually travel alone or in pairs when searching for food, and if they have no offspring to attend to they may even sleep out in the wilderness and not return home for days or weeks at a time. The area is most likely to be at its maximum occupancy during the summer, when food is plentiful and traveling further out in search of something to eat isn’t necessary.

The violet kitshrox has similar instinctive vocalizations to its ancestor. When excited, however, it makes a sound eerily similar to a human cackle. Its non-instinctive vocalizations, its name-barking and “language”, are only mildly more complex; without a river to define cardinal directions, dozens of “words” can be used to describe a location. This is primarily used to inform--or misinform--other kitshroxes of the location of a new food source. Their body language is also typical for shrogs, though their smile-analogous expression is somewhat exaggerated with the corners of the mouth pulled back into a weirdly smirk-like appearance.

The violet kitshrox no longer mates belly-to-belly, as there are no spikes necessitating such a vulnerable position. Otherwise, its reproduction is largely unchanged. Though kitshroxes will generally mate with those they already found attractive beforehand, mating rivalry will still often come up, leading to shoving matches using the armor on their noses, males fighting over females and females fighting over males. Gestation lasts 3 months and they give birth to naked and helpless young, which live in a pouch and suckle milk. As the violet kitshrox is placental, its offspring are already fairly developed at birth and leave the pouch in just over 2 weeks, though they will continue to suckle until they are about 5 weeks old. Their growth rate is slow compared to the speed at which they wean, as having a large brain limits how quickly they can mature. A violet kitshrox is fully grown at 4 years of age. The maximum lifespan of the violet kitshrox is only 20 years, as by chance they were descended from a population of their ancestor which had a shortened lifespan as a consequence of regularly dying young, and their life expectancy when excluding infant death is still 15 years.

----

This species cannot be approved until my retconned description for Seashrog, which has just been sitting there in the revisions thread, is reviewed/approved, as it mentions a feature which is added in the altered description.

QUOTE (colddigger @ Jul 4 2021, 11:00 PM)

Have pupa or their equivalent developed more than once on earth?

They only exist in a single clade of insects, the Endopterygota, and seem to have only evolved once.

A pupa in real life is the entirety of an insect's nymph stage compressed into one. No organism on Sagan 4 can evolve it because there are no species which have a larva -> nymph -> adult lifecycle.

An alternative is a cocoon, but a cocoon is useless or even detrimental unless the larva -> adult transitional stage is unweildy or unfit or takes too much energy to transition to. I don't think that would be the case for this organism.

Didn't you make a "giant red anteater" for Snaiad?

Is a pupa even realistic for this organism? From my observation, every single pupa on Sagan 4 Alpha is implausible, a waste of energy, and easy to lose.

Okay, now that I'm looking more closely, there's another issue.

To be submitted as a global genus, there must be at least 3 species depicted in the image. As there is only one species pictured, it must either be edited into a single-species submission with a single range or two more species need to be added to the artwork.

I'm also not sure if "worm" should be used in the name, as it's a plant and on Sagan IV "worm" refers to a specific group of organisms which it is not a part of.

The old sagan 4 forum now has a page on the lost media wiki: https://lostmediawiki.com/Sagan_4_Forum_(pa...dia;_2007-2017)

Hopefully this catches the eye of someone who might be able to help track down someone who has a copy.