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The intent was always that the wing toe is the one doing the motion equivalent to that of a bird's hand. I always positioned joints accordingly? That's why they have to have feathers on their toes even in species that walk on both hooves.

If the entire "digitigrade foot" was doing that motion, there wouldn't be species raising and lengthening their toes. They'd just lose the feathers on the wing toe. (I know I have a species in the wip thread that seems to contradict this, but it has an actual explanation that y'all will see next gen)

That was my initial understanding before this whole deal with joints and the skeletal outline came into play, and when I was asking about how Saucebacks could twist below the hip on their toes like real animals could.

That in mind, that their toes are what's able to break out of the planar motion, what are your thoughts on the limb skeleton I suggested?
Basically shortening all the bones, especially the single foot bone and allowing the long toe to become a more maneuverable wing body for fluttering or vortex flight.

I wonder about toe folding given they have three bones in there, or would they just fuse...

QUOTE (colddigger @ Jan 30 2023, 02:47 PM)

That was my initial understanding before this whole deal with joints and the skeletal outline came into play, and when I was asking about how Saucebacks could twist below the hip on their toes like real animals could. That in mind, that their toes are what's able to break out of the planar motion, what are your thoughts on the limb skeleton I suggested? Basically shortening all the bones, especially the single foot bone and allowing the long toe to become a more maneuverable wing body for fluttering or vortex flight. I wonder about toe folding given they have three bones in there, or would they just fuse...

Well, ophrey wing toes are just one long bone


Breaking planar motion for the toes specifically was kinda required for the ancestors of modern saucebacks to really move the way they did? Especially when they first evolved biramous limbs and were sprawling the hooves to stay balanced on top of other creatures.


Shortening all bones before the wing toe could work, but you'd get a sauce with very short legs lol. I have a concept waiting for next gen that kinda does that, it doesn't even properly climb anymore it just clings to things

For future reference



This is what all the joints are. Ball socket hip, planar motion before the toes, then the toes including the wing toe can move around more like the wrist of a bird.

There is some added complexity with the feathers themselves being able to move up and down some relative to the plane, but the joints should stay pretty much restricted to this or you will have a very floppy nonfunctional wing.

1. Structural support:
The force is still distributed along the entire wing, but more of that wing is placed at the center of gravity along the sides of the body and held by the hip muscles, which is the equivalent of a building with stronger support, you don’t lose potential height by placing more of the weight of the building in its support, you gain it. . As for the size of the ankle, obviously it's going to grow along with the toes to support them.

2. Inertial force:
Yes, first of all, thank you for acknowledging the inertial force, this suggests progress in the conversation. There is absolutely a chance of tearing the grashof muscle due to inertial forces... But not as much of a chance as you have to tear your muscles when switching between the extremes of downward acceleration and upward acceleration during a bird's normal flap cycle. Still, the tensile strength of the grashof muscle would likely be the upper limit for what a visorbill can do without self-harm.

3. The plane-breaking ankle:
While I find the idea of biat descendants catching thermals like hawks & hunting like peregrine falcons without even twisting their ankle to curve the wing to be incredible, as in lacking believability, as the placement of the toes barely allows any kind of curvature and the gap between the imposed handicap and the described performance is just completely unrealistic. Even so, I know I can't prevent dorite from declaring that cannon for biats, and I can't stop others from accepting that without skepticism. Still, the songsauce piper provides plenty of room between the biat and the visorbill to allow for increasing the range of motion around the ankle and was well positioned to need to do so.

4. Evolutionary viability:
Yes, just like everything else, flight included, this too is unnecessary, and it actually required an evolutionary U-turn, transitioning through a species that prioritized agility over speed, rather than a straightforward adaptation towards speed. The only RL lineage that IMO had the potential to evolve this were microraptors, assuming they did fly with 4 wings (which I know is currently disputed). I would even say some of its adaptations would have made it easier; the base of the tail could have provided a fantastic attachment area for hind leg muscles, and shifting from walking on 3 toes to 2 toes would have probably been easier than 2 hooves to 1 hoof, not to mention close lens eyes to navigate with.Beyond that, there wasn't really a RL opportunity I know of to judge the viability of it, and a road not taken doesn't really prove the road isn't there, as anyone who's into spec evo should know.

This post has been edited by Jarlaxle: Jan 30 2023, 05:02 PM

"the placement of the toes barely allows any kind of curvature ..."


I think I'm a little lost on this part.



Having the kinds of joints listed as useful, I think that the base of the wing toe ought to have switched from a saddle joint to possibly a ball joint of some kind to allow for the greatest amount of mobility when needed. It kind of looks like that's the direction that the skeleton was going anyway.

QUOTE (colddigger @ Jan 31 2023, 01:12 AM)

"the placement of the toes barely allows any kind of curvature ..." I think I'm a little lost on this part. Having the kinds of joints listed as useful, I think that the base of the wing toe ought to have switched from a saddle joint to possibly a ball joint of some kind to allow for the greatest amount of mobility when needed. It kind of looks like that's the direction that the skeleton was going anyway.

I mean the toes are simply not enough to be able to do this:


Or this:


Or even this


If biats can't twist their ankles to bend their wings but can fly the way they are described too, how does that work?

This post has been edited by Jarlaxle: Jan 30 2023, 05:33 PM

The part that bends when ophreys do that is... the base of the wing toe. Because those images are showing the equivalent location on a bird's wing, the wrist, bending.

How do you think a biat wing is structured??

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Biat wings have all the same basic joint locations as a bird' wing just with an extra segment before it meets the body????????????????????

You'd still need at least two breaking points twisitng downwards to create a curve, and the only avalible joints to do that are the hinge joints either the knee or the ankle would have to break the plane - most likely both.

Even if you choose not to do so, which is the likely outcome of this conversation, what's the problem with songsauce piper providing a transition for more flexible ankles? Evolving non magical flight skills should be at least as viable as the alternative.

This post has been edited by Jarlaxle: Jan 30 2023, 05:51 PM

the...curve created by the fact that there's a patagium stretched in between the wrist and the shoulder??? or the curve created by the arrangement of the feathers????? What curve are you talking about, all I see skeletally are bent wrists??????

Disgustedorite you're saying the base of the wing toe may be considered the new wrist, and should have the structural support, strength, and maneuverability of a proper one it sounds like.

Yes, the foot proper and particularly the wing toe are doing what a bird's hand does.

An elbow does not need to bend like a wrist. The ball socket hip, the saddle joints for the toes, the patagia, and the broad mobility of the feathers themselves allow it to bend in all the ways a bird wing can, because it's the same joints in roughly the same locations doing the same things. I don't get what the hell Jarlaxle is referring to, unless...

Jarlaxle, do you think birds can't twist their shoulders?

The base of the toe is a new the wrist but the ankle is not a wrist?

Also if we're enforcing a rule against joints evolving to break away from their original plane, how would biats evolve to spread their wings in the first place? And given that nature breaks that rule in so many ways, what accuracy are we gaining by reinforcing such a rule?

QUOTE (Jarlaxle @ Jan 30 2023, 08:03 PM)

The base of the toe is a new the wrist but the ankle is not a wrist? Also if we're enforcing a rule against joints evolving to break away from their original plane, how would biats evolve to spread their wings in the first place? And given that nature breaks that rule in so many ways, what accuracy are we gaining by reinforcing such a rule?

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