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QUOTE (colddigger @ Jan 31 2023, 10:04 AM)

So I understand U-joints but I'm in no mental state to be able to visualize what you are describing in a biological manner, when you have time would you be able to draw this out in a simple way showing how it all fits together? I looked back to read the initial description and I think that I got something backwards when I was describing my sudden thoughts on the grashof loop, from the description it sounds like it's the femur moving forward and back while there is a tie attached to the Albert joint holding it in place in some way. Which I suppose rather than just having a twitch action it would be kind of a contract and hold, or cramping of the glute muscle to perform that.

Yep and yep. I'm apprehensive because there will be some guesswork regarding the particular details intended for the joint, which will likely lead to some hollow "huh got ya!" moments from someone here, but ill still try to depict it visually once im not similarly sleep deprived.

Regarding the grashof muscles, yep your second interpretation is the correct one, at least on the short end its role is to just hold on tight. An earlier idea you had to incorporate an accumulation of tough fascia might work though.

This post has been edited by Jarlaxle: Jan 31 2023, 02:40 AM

Looking over briefly what I had written in my sleep depressed state, I'm wondering is maybe doing something like that would allow the grasshof loop to not act as a permanent bind on the limb, but rather something that can be engaged and disengaged as a muscle is held tight...

I'm wondering if that were the case, that it was able to be engaged and disengaged, that that would allow at least the earlier members of the piper that had been moving rapidly into this new form of movement, to be able to ease into it when engaging, while also being able to apply a more typical manner of flight when desired. Since they would be larger and a little slower and the two methods are different manners of moving around in the air that would be applied to different situations.

Once the method was fine tuned then permanent engagement could be a possible option by shortening that cord, if that were to be considered.

Just vague thoughts.

Alright, I’m gonna cut this off here. We’ve hit the end of the generation countdown and haven’t reached a viable version the team can agree on. To prevent this from holding back the conclusion of the generation.

feel free to resubmit in Gen 167, however please don’t do so until this discussion thread has reached a consensus of some kind. Another long thread like this would be unproductive if it’s unchanged, and it’ll involve too much rehashing to get another thread caught up.

I'm glad it can continue to be figured out and resubmitted next generation, especially since I would like to make a songsauce of my own once it is.

QUOTE (colddigger @ Jan 31 2023, 04:04 PM)

Looking over briefly what I had written in my sleep depressed state, I'm wondering is maybe doing something like that would allow the grasshof loop to not act as a permanent bind on the limb, but rather something that can be engaged and disengaged as a muscle is held tight... I'm wondering if that were the case, that it was able to be engaged and disengaged, that that would allow at least the earlier members of the piper that had been moving rapidly into this new form of movement, to be able to ease into it when engaging, while also being able to apply a more typical manner of flight when desired. Since they would be larger and a little slower and the two methods are different manners of moving around in the air that would be applied to different situations. Once the method was fine tuned then permanent engagement could be a possible option by shortening that cord, if that were to be considered. Just vague thoughts.

Spot on.

So the way I think of it is as a sliding mechanism. For another example of that in biology, smarter everyday has a video analyzing a chameleon's hyoid bone as a sliding mechanical linkage: https://youtu.be/8MtbfrCGRm8
(Slight confusion of terminology: He calls it a 2 bar mechanism but in general the attachment points or static "floor" of the mechanism is usually counted as a 3rd bar, the same way the hips can be said to be the 4th bar on the visorbill. Though I get confused about these all the time).

What that means for the piper is that it is able to pull in its knee, tighten its muscles and release it, "shooting" downward the rest of its wings in a short burst of force, allowing for rapid take off and changes of trajectory during flight. That wouldn't be part of the repeating flap cycle but more like an emergency escape button. In theory earlier pipers could have even stretched its wings completely, though the forest environment and lifestyle would rarely present an opportunity to do that. Generally it was a survival of the dodgiest lifestyle.

As the knee muscle grew past the femur and attached to the hip, initially just to provide a more powerful dodge, though stretching the wing outward would become more difficult.
The visorbills method of motion would likely have started as a way to compensate when flying above the canopy. Then the tradeoff would be reversed: the shorter the end of the grashof muscle becomes the more efficient the acceleration over the canopy was but the less force it was able to release when using the muscle to dodge. This is where the visorbills would have branched off into larger and eventually worldwide migrations which the pipers could not follow.

QUOTE (MNIDJM @ Feb 1 2023, 03:39 AM)

Alright, I’m gonna cut this off here. We’ve hit the end of the generation countdown and haven’t reached a viable version the team can agree on. To prevent this from holding back the conclusion of the generation. feel free to resubmit in Gen 167, however please don’t do so until this discussion thread has reached a consensus of some kind. Another long thread like this would be unproductive if it’s unchanged, and it’ll involve too much rehashing to get another thread caught up.

To be clear, the discussion of alternative ways to achieve the same thing do not discount the established viable ways to do so, and as our own wrists and ankles demonstrate the imagined rule against increasing the flexibility of a joint isn't true for RL or for sagan (historically or now), meaning the opposition to the consensus has neither accuracy nor fair play on their side.

Given that I've actually taken the effort to demonstrate that the demonstrably wrong objections were such and the response was doubling down, is there any basis at all to expect that doing so again and again would sway the opposition? And if consensus is required no matter the reasoning for the dispute or the players involved, that would mean anyone can throw a ranch at anyone's else's submissions regardless of the ability to establish a reasonable basis for doing so, which is certainly the case here, and isn't a good precedent to set. What would stop me or anyone else from going to yours or dorites submissions and doing the same as the oppositions did here? If your answer is that you would stop me from doing it, what is stopping you from taking a stance against such behavior here, and why would it be fair or reasonable for you to stop it there if you choose to not stop it here? If it's because the opposition comes from a mod, why hold your mods to a lower standard of behavior then regular team members? If it's because of social status, should submissions be evaluated like some sort of highschool-ish popularity contest?

I can continue to discuss it in an alt-Sagan "What if plausibility took precedent over community politics" scenario, but unlike the demonstrated biology of the visorbill, consensus seems a lot less plausible.

This post has been edited by Jarlaxle: Feb 1 2023, 02:50 PM

Please take this discussion to a new thread.

QUOTE (Disgustedorite @ Feb 1 2023, 02:09 PM)

Please take this discussion to a new thread.

I thought we could continue discussing the critter in this thread?

The other topic, sure.

The matter of how to make the joint work the way you want is better for a sagan 4 science thread than a graveyarded rejected species thread. Especially as it's easier to find later that way.

That's a good point

QUOTE (colddigger @ Feb 1 2023, 10:43 PM)

QUOTE (Disgustedorite @ Feb 1 2023, 02:09 PM) Please take this discussion to a new thread. I thought we could continue discussing the critter in this thread? The other topic, sure.

Sorry, in my fantasy of idealized stoicism it shouldn't matter, I'd be able to approach it the same way a sculptor might feel while working on an ice statue that won't last the night, continue to invest energy in the visorbill for its own with complete detachment from the consequences, just like a spec evo project as a whole is not expected to bear fruit beyond the inspiration and mental/social stimulation of the moment.

Unfortunately I am very far from that ideal of detachment, and bringing myself to invest more energy into the visorbill while knowing it will be blocked for reasons beyond my control isn't something i can easily do, at least for the moment. Maybe in the future if the dynamic changes, or I might reuse the ideas from here elsewhere. That's said, as far as i know though the OG songsauce piper is still cannon and you can branch off from it, I'll be happy to talk about anything you might need for your songsauce concept.

For now there's about 2 dozen submissions I want to move on to (and given my pace I'd be lucky to get 4 or 5 of them done), which should present plenty more opportunities for discussing and brainstorming biomechanics and evolutionary stories. Probably many more controversies too, though I am horrible at predicting what will be (the fact I had to argue that centrifugal forces are real, but somehow songsauce shared synesthesia went by without anyone questioning it? Boggles my mind). Can't wait to find out what will turn out controversial next generation.

This post has been edited by Jarlaxle: Feb 1 2023, 05:33 PM

Dorite I did ask him to keep this discussion here

The generation should have the last of the species on the compendium for by this weekend if I can manage it, and hopefully the next gen open in about 2 weeks (grad school has been a priority for me so I’ve been doing reviews in bursts). Apologies for the bump but I wanna get gen 167 open before midterm season kicks in for me in mid February and I’ll be limited in how fast I can update. Our policy is we let every new submission have one week minimum of review, so I needed to give whoever took the slot enough time to get properly vetted. This wasn’t the only one that ran outta time, and even my only submission this gen almost got bumped (I finished only an hour before the deadline).

@Jarlaxle Do you mind if I shop this around some MechE and Vert Zoo colleagues of mine, to see if they’ll give me a better understanding on what’s going on and if there’s a way to make this work for everyone?

I asked for the discussion to be moved because continuing it in a rejected species thread would be confusing to others.

QUOTE (MNIDJM @ Feb 2 2023, 11:47 AM)

@Jarlaxle Do you mind if I shop this around some MechE and Vert Zoo colleagues of mine, to see if they’ll give me a better understanding of on what’s going on and if there’s a way to make this work for everyone?

For sure, I'd be interested in their feedback about the mechanism even if the visorbill doesn't turn out politically viable. I expect that the first would be more open minded to it than the latter because of the lack of direct earth analogs, which you can choose to accept, but it might be worth asking the latter specifically about species increasing the flexibility of wrists and ankles or hinge joints in general.

Jarlaxle, please don't use the word "politically" so flippantly. You surely knew that making such a novel, complicated anatomical development would be subject to scrutiny to ensure its plausibility.