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https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1.../rsif.2017.0224

I guess that's possibly more giant insect than bird in it's wing movement.

But also not necessarily difficult to give them a splayed stance if flight is to be their main locomotion.

I think I see the confusion.

If you look closely you'll notice the joint is on the side of the red bar. That's because in the most extreme the shin would twist outwards on about a 90-degree angle while the ankle turns up to add about 60-75 degrees which would put the cannon bone at a maximum of about 165 degrees total from the thigh at the high point of the wing rotation, but the ankle does not turn a full 165 degrees on its own.

I can tweak the angles but IMO that's already less than a human arm, and well within the flexibility of birds and bats curving and shaping their wings during flight. I did not get the impression that interbiats fly with stiff wings.

RoboVisor v2

Wait, did you genuinely think biats only have flight feathers on the wing toe?

As adorable as the mental image of an interbiat stripped of feathers except for the toes and trying to fly with just those might be, sadly no, my mind wasn't blessed with such an enjoyable interpretation at the time.

This was what the songsauce piper was "transitional" towards:

QUOTE

By extending the length of the outer hoof-toe and growing wing feathers directly from it, it was able to function as a flexible wingtip, forming elliptical wing proportions. As the toes maintain a mostly homologous relationship, growing a longer and thinner outer wingtip-toe has also resulted in a longer and thinner inner toe to walk on. While it will still run on its hooves, it will increasingly rely on a plantigrade pose in rest or when perching. With the main curve of the wing provided by the wingtip toe, the cannon bone extended further out while the tibia and femur shrunk, reducing the wing area under the knee but in turn allowing thick thigh muscles to stretch between the tibia and the femur, resulting in a slider-rocker linkage mechanism, creating a stout mascular limb portion out of the bicept fimoris that enable powerful and rapid hopping and launching. - The Songsauce Piper

This post has been edited by Jarlaxle: Jan 16 2023, 02:59 PM

Meta-convo side note: Even though the comment was an attempt to condescend and my response to it was an attempt to diffuse with a joke, that exchange and a repurposing of the resulting mental image has just inspired an idea that might be relevant 3 or 4 gens from now. So still worth it

This post has been edited by Jarlaxle: Jan 16 2023, 06:04 PM

Flightless long toed visorbill with rapid shaking display feather toe tips when-?

QUOTE (colddigger @ Jan 17 2023, 02:34 AM)

Flightless long toed visorbill with rapid shaking display feather toe tips when-?

Yes! And given the degree with which saucebacks can move their feathers (the same way ophreys lift them off the ground), could the quills be repurposed? Possible as pseudo-fingers, maybe they can use them the way chimps use sticks on insect hives, or like chopsticks, or for fishing, or as knitting needles for complicated nest weaving in conjunction with some sort of flora? Maybe they'd "knuckle walk" over folded feathers?

added the animation to the description.

I contacted evo and she says the ankle cannot bend in the way depicted in flying saucebacks.

QUOTE (Disgustedorite @ Jan 30 2023, 03:21 AM)

I contacted evo and she says the ankle cannot bend in the way depicted in flying saucebacks.

Wait, so quail and ophreys really do all their descriptions claim they do with flat wings like insects? Catching thermals and out manuvering large pray without bending their wings? That is absolutely incredible, beyond belief. How do they acomplish such feats?

I am very impressed you were able to come up with alternative viable ways for them to do so, wish you would have saved me the trouble by including them in the descriptions in the first place, but better late then never. Can't wait to read the updated descirptions.

This post has been edited by Jarlaxle: Jan 29 2023, 07:47 PM

I guess more specifically I have to ask, what muscles from the ancestral anatomy are being pulled on to make the joints twist in the way they are in your diagram?




While the diagrams were made for ophreys, the general setup applies to all flying saucebacks.

shrinking this bone would lend toward the fluttering manner that is being aimed for with this lineage, and would open up the potential for digit mobility such as twisting as the muscle attachments associated with that portion can be flaired out for more complex movement if the shape of the joint is allowed to be more complex as well.

I think allowing for the exit from planar form to occur at a single toe would be interesting.




That bone shrinking could probably have been something that happened in the ancestor, since toe elongation happened there as well.

This post has been edited by colddigger: Jan 29 2023, 08:30 PM

Like, I am not saying the joints can't move at all. What you depicted is just very extreme and I'm having a hard time seeing how it's happening with the muscles set up the way they are without also making it impossible for them to stand and hop the way they are also described.

Ah, a joint term I needed was condyloid joint.


Like at the base of fingers.

That's certainly useful.