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So, why exactly would a sauceback evolve towards this kind of lifestyle? I feel like the niche of a parasite or parasitoid would be better filled by other groups. If you has to use a descendant of the buttplug worms, then why not use a krugg? Saucebacks are more specialized for vertebrate-like niches and usually fill the ecological roles of megafauna which does not usually coincide with a parasitic lifestyle.

Oh, definitely an interesting choice in lifestyle, and certainly a callback to their distant ancestors. A few questions, though:

1. Where are the breathing holes on the tail?

2. Given that they're capable of decreasing oxygen levels so low that plents can collapse/suffocate, how are they ensuring that they themselves are getting enough oxygen especially given that their tails are kept inside the plent?

Perhaps they should live in the nostrils head first, that way their barbed feathers help to secure them should something attempt to pull them out, and also so that they can breath more efficiently?

QUOTE (Nergali @ Dec 17 2021, 02:07 AM)

Oh, definitely an interesting choice in lifestyle, and certainly a callback to their distant ancestors. A few questions, though: 1. Where are the breathing holes on the tail?

Woops... Thanks for noticing that, fixed it.

QUOTE (Nergali @ Dec 17 2021, 02:07 AM)

2. Given that they're capable of decreasing oxygen levels so low that plents can collapse/suffocate, how are they ensuring that they themselves are getting enough oxygen especially given that their tails are kept inside the plent? Perhaps they should live in the nostrils head first, that way their barbed feathers help to secure them should something attempt to pull them out, and also so that they can breath more efficiently?

It lodges in, lays its eggs, and dies.

Would these perform the same behavior toward a recently dead plent?

QUOTE (colddigger @ Dec 17 2021, 04:46 AM)

Would these perform the same behavior toward a recently dead plent?

Yes, I don't think they'd notice the difference.

QUOTE (OviraptorFan @ Dec 16 2021, 06:59 PM)

So, why exactly would a sauceback evolve towards this kind of lifestyle? I feel like the niche of a parasite or parasitoid would be better filled by other groups. If you has to use a descendant of the buttplug worms, then why not use a krugg? Saucebacks are more specialized for vertebrate-like niches and usually fill the ecological roles of megafauna which does not usually coincide with a parasitic lifestyle.

While I have normally agreed with your critiques and I was the one who suggested you say them on here (I take responsibility for suggesting him to do so) (As your critiques did make me think more and realize I need to be more prudent about approvals), I think that even though you have a point on using a krugg as possible idea for this niche, I would say that even this whole argument, towards this submission in particular, is rather overboard since its ancestor is too small to even qualify as megafauna as Papa mentioned and this species could arguably be in this role with relative ease. Perhaps a transitional species may be required; seeing how voracious the logworm sauceback already is but not quite at a caliber enough to necessarily take an immediate plunge into justifiably parasitizing large plents yet, it will likely need only one transitional species (Like a sauceback that takes chunks out of larger plents or lays its eggs on plent carcasses) to go into this concept.

I'm not saying that you're entirely wrong OviFan, but neither is Papa in this case.

I don't think a transitional species is even necessary, if anything this can be a transitional species.

Given they would do the same to a dead plent, it would be a behavior or attraction to nostril holes for laying eggs, a stimulus response of flaring feathers once laying eggs;
While flaring feathers and barber feathers are not selected for in carrion preferred populations, those also have to compete with Vermees, while those populations drawn to fresher and living nostrils don't.
The flaring wouldn't be a thoughtful decision but it would result in greater success, the barbs would be selected for quickly as those without would more easily get dislodged faster, resulting in fewer eggs getting laid in the right place (stuck deep in the nostril hole).

So what I think is an expansion on the description a little bit talking about competition selective pressure from Vermees, but still a willingness for carrion when fresher sources are unavailable.

The biggest thing is actually not the adult, but the larvae.

Because it is their behavior to seek out denser lignin, and it is their behavior that would change to eat lighter cellulose alongside that lignin, which works fine. Their behavior would be the most transitional due to their current state simply boring through the tissues of the Plent to seek out bone, the next species would likely consume more soft tissue, fat reserves and skimming bone, drinking blood, and eventually eating the nephron lining of the skin and cleaning out the body into a sack best the end as a true parasitoid.

This post has been edited by colddigger: Dec 17 2021, 08:58 AM

QUOTE (colddigger @ Dec 17 2021, 04:54 PM)

So what I think is an expansion on the description a little bit talking about competition selective pressure from Vermees, but still a willingness for carrion when fresher sources are unavailable.

excellent ideas, I've added that to the description.

Barlow and Hydro aren't connected,I don't think it can live in both without living in the coastal waters between them.

QUOTE (kopout @ Dec 21 2021, 05:47 AM)

Barlow and Hydro aren't connected,I don't think it can live in both without living in the coastal waters between them.

Fixed.
Of my submissions so far this was the most cooperative work, so thank you Chillypaz Kopout & Oofle for the details and great naming scheme, and and Colddigger for providing tons of fantastic feedback forethought and brainstorming in developing and flashing out their lifecycle.

"it's larva": "its larvae".

"their way" conflicts with "its larva" earlier.

"started from": That sentence needs grammatical clarificiation.

Do Lungworm Clogmanes always stand like that? They look rather top-heavy.

"as larva": "as larvae"

"into a adults": Into adults.

"its ancestor, they are": Pronoun conflict.

"spikey": "Spiky" is the more common variant, but this is optional.

"maw": That is not a verb: did you mean "chew" or "gnaw"?

"plents epidermis": "plent's epidermis".

"plents limbs": "plent's limbs".

Some of its hosts are low on the food chain. What's the risk the burrowing will make the host more susceptible to predation, and therefore the larvae will die? Just causing a decrease in oxygen in hosts which depend on running away or other highly energy-intensive defenses could hurt its chances.

You misspelled "Coldigger" in the credits. That's also five people: the most people credited with one organism I have ever observed. It brings up the question of what degree of feedback or involvement is necessary to justify inclusion in the credits.

QUOTE (Coolsteph @ Dec 22 2021, 07:20 PM)

"it's larva": "its larvae". "their way" conflicts with "its larva" earlier. "started from": That sentence needs grammatical clarificiation. "as larva": "as larvae" "into a adults": Into adults. "its ancestor, they are": Pronoun conflict. "spikey": "Spiky" is the more common variant, but this is optional. "maw": That is not a verb: did you mean "chew" or "gnaw"? "plents epidermis": "plent's epidermis". "plents limbs": "plent's limbs". You misspelled "Coldigger" in the credits.

Fixed, thank you.

QUOTE (Coolsteph @ Dec 22 2021, 07:20 PM)

Do Lungworm Clogmanes always stand like that? They look rather top-heavy.

Again, you miss all the great debates of discord, because this has come up, and unfortuantely I wasn't really able to get as much canonical information about sauceback gonads and internal anatomy as I would have liked, but I imagine them to be behind the cloaca at the back of the boat shaped torso:

(disclaimer: the above is just a guestimate at a generic sauceback, not the clogmanes themselves)

So when you look at the clogmane, everything above the tail to head line is fluff, it is all mane, while the bottom of the "boat" shaped torso includes both their digestive system and inlarged r strategists gonads at the back of the boat, so that should be about the center of mass right above the legs.

QUOTE (Coolsteph @ Dec 22 2021, 07:20 PM)

Some of its hosts are low on the food chain. What's the risk the burrowing will make the host more susceptible to predation, and therefore the larvae will die? Just causing a decrease in oxygen in hosts which depend on running away or other highly energy-intensive defenses could hurt its chances.

Would the larvae die though? This again raises the unanaswered questions of plent tissues and what kind of digestive system predating on plents requires, but how many plent predators eat the wooden skeleton or be thorough enough to clean the bone to the very last pest?

QUOTE (Coolsteph @ Dec 22 2021, 07:20 PM)

That's also five people: the most people credited with one organism I have ever observed. It brings up the question of what degree of feedback or involvement is necessary to justify inclusion in the credits.

I'd also like to thank all their moms, and their dads...

Click to expand

Really though that depends on your decision as admins. I'd order it as:
Creature concept from joke to actual submission -me
Expanding and brainstorming their life cycle and biology - Cold
Chillypaz, Kopout, Oofle - naming

draw the line where you choose.

This post has been edited by Papainmanis: Dec 22 2021, 03:49 PM

It's possible that if the larvae are small enough, in thick enough or sturdy enough bones, the risk a predator of its hosts will eat them too isn't too great. The risk a predator will kill them by snapping through or crunching up the bones is, all else being equal, likely greater for small hosts like Kakonats. Sometimes predators eat prey whole, like snakes with mice, so whether they can properly extract nutrients from the cellulose-bones is less relevant. In the case of Kakonats, it doesn't seem as if any organisms which probably swallow them whole (e.g., young Kakonats and Grelags) overlap with this organism's habitat.

If they chewed through less-essential parts of the skeleton (e.g., ribs if the hosts have ribs, tail bones so long as the host can still breathe) that might minimize predation risk to the host long enough for them to mature. Alternatively, if the hosts were of a type that hid in burrows or undergrowth while it was ailing, instead of living in constantly-moving, alert herds like antelope, the host would be fairly safe.

QUOTE (Coolsteph @ Dec 23 2021, 12:30 AM)

It's possible that if the larvae are small enough, in thick enough or sturdy enough bones, the risk a predator of its hosts will eat them too isn't too great. The risk a predator will kill them by snapping through or crunching up the bones is, all else being equal, likely greater for small hosts like Kakonats. Sometimes predators eat prey whole, like snakes with mice, so whether they can properly extract nutrients from the cellulose-bones is less relevant. In the case of Kakonats, it doesn't seem as if any organisms which probably swallow them whole (e.g., young Kakonats and Grelags) overlap with this organism's habitat. If they chewed through less-essential parts of the skeleton (e.g., ribs if the hosts have ribs, tail bones so long as the host can still breathe) that might minimize predation risk to the host long enough for them to mature. Alternatively, if the hosts were of a type that hid in burrows or undergrowth while it was ailing, instead of living in constantly-moving, alert herds like antelope, the host would be fairly safe.

There is some advantage in using a host to travel further, and they'd naturally spend more time wherever the wood is harder to chew through simply because that takes more time, but other then that the longevity of their host doesn't matter much, it doesn't need to be alive for it's skeleton to be delicious.

Future descendents might expand their diet to other plent tissues, which might crossover with the tissues of other organisms, and if that happens, a host getting swallowed whole by a larger organism could just be an upgrade in real estate value, but for now there isn't much they can do about it. They'd survive by the numbers.

I'm imagining the buffalo birds of a large plent picking the larvae out of breathing holes in it's skin, great opportunity for niche predation.

This post has been edited by colddigger: Dec 22 2021, 06:25 PM