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Why such a sudden appearance of iron respiration? Do the roots house symbiotic microbes that carry out the respiration or something?

QUOTE (Cube67 @ Aug 2 2022, 07:26 AM)

Why such a sudden appearance of iron respiration? Do the roots house symbiotic microbes that carry out the respiration or something?

.

A distant ancestor of it, the Rustball, used to directly metabolize Iron, but with Photosynthesis being more useful at the time, this Iron metabolization remained contained to microbes that were in its roots. IMO This iron is what allowed all of its ancestors (Quaxaca, Quillfence) the lignification that they are known for.

As the Moleroot moved underground, this use of iron became more prominent.
Because most of the Moleroot is underground and only above-ground as needed. It would need something other than photosynthesis to get energy from.

So yes. There are microbes in the root that carry out the respiration.

This post has been edited by HethrJarrod: Aug 15 2022, 03:48 PM

I'm kinda curious about the iron respiration as well, roots on plants breath just like the rest of the plant, taking in oxygen to burn sugar. It's just more energetically profitable than fermentation or anaerobic metabolism. They even form air tubes to allow this in oxygen poor environments, the ones that can survive anyway.

The use of iron respiration could mean easier survival in iron rich but oxygen poor environments, though yielding less energy than oxygen based respiration.

I'll have to look into iron bacteria and how they do it.

I believe that, when I made the Quillfence, I received feedback that volcanic eruptions were actually very rare in Raptor Volcanic. I adjusted the emphasis on volcanic eruption adaptations accordingly. With volcanic eruptions being so rare, it does seem unlikely it would need such extensive, specialized adaptations. Though I had initially designed the tubers of the Quillfence as an eruption-based adaptation, after being given feedback, I rewrote it to primarily be an adaptation to the much more frequent event of herbivory.

It might be more plausible for it to build up a relationship with iron-associated microbes first, build up energy exchanges of some sort with them, and then gain respiration abilities by association. The iron microbes could also play some other role, such as disease protection. (Plants can deal with infections by inhibiting pathogens' access to their iron)

You'll have to specify the microbe or microbes in the description. Depending on how different it is from a "generic" microbe of its type (assuming it's a genus group) you may have to make a microbe submission as part of a paired submission.

Is the Moleroot's stem really white, or just not colored in? It's hard to tell with the white background.

The distant ancestor is the Rustball which was able to interact with iron.
It eventually moved to areas with not a lot of iron, so it lost its signature red color
becoming purple.

But a generation or so later, the Pioneer Quillball starts making sharp quills.

What I'd like to do is have the Pioneer Quillball using the iron in its enviroment in order to produce these quills. That would make the Quaxca's thorns/quills and the Quillfence's quills iron-based as well.

QUOTE (Coolsteph @ Aug 15 2022, 07:02 PM)

I believe that, when I made the Quillfence, I received feedback that volcanic eruptions were actually very rare in Raptor Volcanic. I adjusted the emphasis on volcanic eruption adaptations accordingly. With volcanic eruptions being so rare, it does seem unlikely it would need such extensive, specialized adaptations. Though I had initially designed the tubers of the Quillfence as an eruption-based adaptation, after being given feedback, I rewrote it to primarily be an adaptation to the much more frequent event of herbivory. It might be more plausible for it to build up a relationship with iron-associated microbes first, build up energy exchanges of some sort with them, and then gain respiration abilities by association. The iron microbes could also play some other role, such as disease protection. (Plants can deal with infections by inhibiting pathogens' access to their iron) You'll have to specify the microbe or microbes in the description. Depending on how different it is from a "generic" microbe of its type (assuming it's a genus group) you may have to make a microbe submission as part of a paired submission. Is the Moleroot's stem really white, or just not colored in? It's hard to tell with the white background.

I don't think it's possible to do exactly what you're seeking, at least in one step.

Drawing back on iron metabolism that far is in conflict with the atavism rule on page 2 of the Alpha rule submissions.
Atavism Rules
An atavistic species cannot draw traits from any further back than 10 project Generations or its ancestor's ancestor, whichever is earlier, without extraordinary justification. Beyond this point, old traits are considered genetically lost and cannot be reactivated. This includes adding ancestral traits to unelaborated larvae.

Rustballs: Generation 81.
Your submission: Generation 166.
So: 85 generations.
Ancestors between Rustball and Moleroot: 5. (surprisingly few, given the time spans, but still sufficient.)

If you want to do something strange with purpleflora and iron metabolism, it would probably be easier to achieve what you want from the Fuzzy Beachballs, That being said, a descendant of the Fuzzy Beachballs would have the Rustballs as its ancestor's ancestor's ancestor, which is too far back: there's no way it recover iron oxide metabolism, at least in one step. It would need to "re-invent" it from what it presently has, like how pandas' ancestors lost a digit (an early tetrapod, Acanthostega, had 7 fingers) and then "re-invented" a thumb using a wrist bone.
The Rustballs do have a descendant which interacts with iron oxide and is still extant: the Chaococoon. If you make a Quillfence or other purpleflora descendant which uses iron in an interesting way already, and it gets a close relationship with a Chaococoon descendant and symbiosis super-organism interactions or horizontal gene transfer occurs, it might be plausible to do something like what you're seeking. Soil microbe interactions could also work, or help things along by perhaps acting as an intermediary. Chaococoons don't live in overlapping habitats with the Quillfence. It might be easier to use a purpleflora that lives on beaches, or closer to Chaococoons' habitat, and then make a terrestrial/somewhat terrestrial Chaococoon descendant.

You should know that getting a few of the Rustballs' genes from the Chaococoon via horizontal gene transfer is an multi-step sequence that requires extensive planning, and also has uncertain permissibility compared to making a purpleflora that does something interesting with iron whose evolution has little if anything to do with Rustballs. Here's a list of plants which accumulate very highvery high quantities of certain metals. Thistree tree, in particular, has very conspicuously high-nickel sap. It's not out of the question at least some descendants of Rustballs would have high tolerance to high iron levels in soil and have higher amounts of iron in their tissues than other flora types, but something dramatic like iron-based quills would need to be elaborated upon in a plausible way. Try researching the adaptive benefits of high iron tolerance or iron accumulation. You could go for a belts-and-suspenders approach by making a organism hyper-accumulate iron because a very high-iron environment (e.g., a special landmark) allows it to, hyper-accumulating iron because it lives in a very low-iron habitat, having iron adaptations in relation to disease (this would require plant disease research and making disease organisms), having specialized pests which conveniently happen to be sensitive to high iron levels and are poisoned if they eat too much, and deterring herbivores with iron-rich phytoliths because the herbivores are very persistent in eating the organisms, and have very tough teeth.

Basically... that you seem to be saying is I'd have to find a microbe way of doing it.
And not with genetics.

Probably could use regular Rustcells to do it. Those are a global species.
Would that be okay?

QUOTE (Coolsteph @ Aug 25 2022, 11:57 PM)

I don't think it's possible to do exactly what you're seeking, at least in one step. Drawing back on iron metabolism that far is in conflict with the atavism rule on page 2 of the Alpha rule submissions. Atavism Rules An atavistic species cannot draw traits from any further back than 10 project Generations or its ancestor's ancestor, whichever is earlier, without extraordinary justification. Beyond this point, old traits are considered genetically lost and cannot be reactivated. This includes adding ancestral traits to unelaborated larvae. Rustballs: Generation 81. Your submission: Generation 166. So: 85 generations. Ancestors between Rustball and Moleroot: 5. (surprisingly few, given the time spans, but still sufficient.) If you want to do something strange with purpleflora and iron metabolism, it would probably be easier to achieve what you want from the Fuzzy Beachballs, That being said, a descendant of the Fuzzy Beachballs would have the Rustballs as its ancestor's ancestor's ancestor, which is too far back: there's no way it recover iron oxide metabolism, at least in one step. It would need to "re-invent" it from what it presently has, like how pandas' ancestors lost a digit (an early tetrapod, Acanthostega, had 7 fingers) and then "re-invented" a thumb using a wrist bone. The Rustballs do have a descendant which interacts with iron oxide and is still extant: the Chaococoon. If you make a Quillfence or other purpleflora descendant which uses iron in an interesting way already, and it gets a close relationship with a Chaococoon descendant and symbiosis super-organism interactions or horizontal gene transfer occurs, it might be plausible to do something like what you're seeking. Soil microbe interactions could also work, or help things along by perhaps acting as an intermediary.  Chaococoons don't live in overlapping habitats with the Quillfence. It might be easier to use a purpleflora that lives on beaches, or closer to Chaococoons' habitat, and then make a terrestrial/somewhat terrestrial Chaococoon descendant. You should know that getting a few of the Rustballs' genes from the Chaococoon via horizontal gene transfer is an multi-step sequence that requires extensive planning, and also has uncertain permissibility compared to making a purpleflora that does something interesting with iron whose evolution has little if anything to do with Rustballs. Here's a list of plants which accumulate very highvery high quantities of certain metals. Thistree tree, in particular, has very conspicuously high-nickel sap. It's not out of the question at least some descendants of Rustballs would have high tolerance to high iron levels in soil and have higher amounts of iron in their tissues than other flora types, but something dramatic like iron-based quills would need to be elaborated upon in a plausible way. Try researching the adaptive benefits of high iron tolerance or iron accumulation. You could go for a belts-and-suspenders approach by making a organism hyper-accumulate iron because a very high-iron environment (e.g., a special landmark) allows it to, hyper-accumulating iron because it lives in a very low-iron habitat, having iron adaptations in relation to disease (this would require plant disease research and making disease organisms), having specialized pests which conveniently happen to be sensitive to high iron levels and are poisoned if they eat too much, and deterring herbivores with iron-rich phytoliths because the herbivores are very persistent in eating the organisms, and have very tough teeth.

Using Rustcells as an indirect means of gaining energy from iron seems best, although respiring using oxygen yields much more energy than iron respiration, and so it would probably be inefficient for the host to use Rustcell symbiotes as a significant source of energy. You could have Rustcells provide some other function to the host other than pure energy. You could, for example, create a soil pathogen that infects the Quillfence descendant and happens to compete with or endanger a Rustcell descendant in some way, and so the Rustcell descendant produces defensive compounds to weaken them. If the Quillfence descendant got into a close symbiosis with the Rustcell descendant, it could gain resistance to the pathogen. The fact Quillfences and their relatives are purely asexual (which is another plausibility issue, admittedly) just increases its vulnerability to such a disease, and its pressure to find some way around it if it can.

Here's a link on bacteria-to-eukaryote gene transfer:
https://www.nature.com/articles/nrmicro.2017.137

On one hand, if you're using horizontal gene transfer with Rustcells, Rustcells are easier to put in the same spot as Quillfences and their close relatives. On the other hand, if you're doing something drastic like horizontal gene transfer of something with a substantial, highly visible function in macro flora, you'd probably want to make it as believable as possible. Chaococoons, at least, are in the same kingdom as Quillfences. Rustcells and Quillfences aren't in the same kingdom. (https://sagan4alpha.miraheze.org/wiki/Taxonomy/Sandbox/2#Kingdom_-_Erythrobacillales_(majurums_and_rustcells)) This is not to necessarily say that you can't do horizontal gene transfer with Rustcells, but that you'd need to do it carefully, possibly with multiple steps, and provide similar real-world examples in your organism description.

It seems horizontal gene transfer can occur between plants based on parasitic plant connections or symbiotic fungi.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant%E2%80%9...l_gene_transfer

Here are some other sources:
https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2148
https://www.indefenseofplants.com/blog/2015...l-gene-transfer

The best plan depends on exactly what you want to achieve, and how many steps or organism submissions are acceptable. If all you want is defensive structures high in iron, and not iron metabolism, this would be much easier to do.

Can a tuber survive without a shoot standing above the ground?

Wanting to make a plant that basically becomes a worm

I figured they would have to use some kind of non-sunlight energy making.

If they're able to survive fairly completely underground... there wouldn't need to be iron-microbes

QUOTE (Coolsteph @ Aug 26 2022, 03:51 PM)

Using Rustcells as an indirect means of gaining energy from iron seems best, although respiring using oxygen yields much more energy than iron respiration, and so it would probably be inefficient for the host to use Rustcell symbiotes as a significant source of energy. You could have Rustcells provide some other function to the host other than pure energy. You could, for example, create a soil pathogen that infects the Quillfence descendant and happens to compete with or endanger a Rustcell descendant in some way, and so the Rustcell descendant produces defensive compounds to weaken them. If the Quillfence descendant got into a close symbiosis with the Rustcell descendant, it could gain resistance to the pathogen. The fact Quillfences and their relatives are purely asexual (which is another plausibility issue, admittedly) just increases its vulnerability to such a disease, and its pressure to find some way around it if it can. Here's a link on bacteria-to-eukaryote gene transfer: https://www.nature.com/articles/nrmicro.2017.137 On one hand, if you're using horizontal gene transfer with Rustcells, Rustcells are easier to put in the same spot as Quillfences and their close relatives. On the other hand, if you're doing something drastic like horizontal gene transfer of something with a substantial, highly visible function in macro flora, you'd probably want to make it as believable as possible.  Chaococoons, at least, are in the same kingdom as Quillfences. Rustcells and Quillfences aren't in the same kingdom. (https://sagan4alpha.miraheze.org/wiki/Taxonomy/Sandbox/2#Kingdom_-_Erythrobacillales_(majurums_and_rustcells)) This is not to necessarily say that you can't do horizontal gene transfer with Rustcells, but that you'd need to do it carefully, possibly with multiple steps, and provide similar real-world examples in your organism description. It seems horizontal gene transfer can occur between plants based on parasitic plant connections or symbiotic fungi. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant%E2%80%9...l_gene_transfer Here are some other sources: https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2148 https://www.indefenseofplants.com/blog/2015...l-gene-transfer The best plan depends on exactly what you want to achieve, and how many steps or organism submissions are acceptable. If all you want is defensive structures high in iron, and not iron metabolism, this would be much easier to do.

This post has been edited by HethrJarrod: Aug 26 2022, 02:09 PM

I believe a tuber can survive without a shoot aboveground. Several plants "die back" (aboveground parts die) during the winter.

If you want to make a "plant" (we use "flora" here) that basically becomes a worm, you would find that easier to do with crystalflora. Crystal Entourage Swordgrasses (a submission this Generation) could be suitable, though you'd have to wait for them to be approved and for the Generatiion to be completed.

Making an obligate parasite flora would be the easiest route. Unfortunately, I don't recall many hemiparasitic plants in this timeline. (There might be some, but evidently, they're rare.) The Botryrophis would be a candidate, except by all logic it should be extinct. (I've brought that up in the "Tracking Extremely Maladapted Species" thread in the Science section.)

I see you've made another submission in your plan to make a flora that's like a worm. Do you still plan to finish this?

Yes.

What do you think about it/its ancestors having formed a relationship with some rustmold in the past?

QUOTE (Coolsteph @ Aug 27 2022, 09:29 PM)

I see you've made another submission in your plan to make a flora that's like a worm. Do you still plan to finish this?

QUOTE (HethrJarrod @ Aug 28 2022, 06:40 PM)

Yes. What do you think about it/its ancestors having formed a relationship with some rustmold in the past? QUOTE (Coolsteph @ Aug 27 2022, 09:29 PM) I see you've made another submission in your plan to make a flora that's like a worm. Do you still plan to finish this?

You'd have to make a retroactive submission to establish a retroactive rustmold association, although I'm not sure if any slots are left, and it might be frowned upon, or prohibited entirely, to create a detail so significant as that. Retroactive submissions must be done carefully.

In any case, all you could do with a retroactive submission is suggest the lineage leading up to the Quillfence has the potential to form significant relationships with rustmolds. For example, when I specified the Quillfence stored energy in the form of inulin, a specific biochemical pathway, that could be interpreted to mean its ancestor did so, or simply that its ancestor had a biochemical pathway that allows inulin storage to be developed in one step by a descendant.

A simpler, less controversial path would be beginning a rustmold association starting with this organism in particular. A quick way to encourage this kind of development in its close relations, or encourage horizontal gene transfer things in its relatives later on, is to make this submission form root relationships with related species. This link could be a good start on how to do this, but since this is such a new phenomenon on Sagan 4 (at least in this timeline), you'll have to move carefully.

"new research has found it"
Sagan 4 is written from the perspective of absolute knowledge, occasional retcons aside. You can, however, point out this submission's lineage derives from the Pioneer Quillball, which sported four species of symbiotic microbes, and so highlight its potential to form symbiotic relationships with multiple kinds of microbes. (Though, admittedly, the Pioneer Quillball's symbiotes were all closely related.)

A retcon saying the Pioneer Quillball and its descendants had iron-reinforced thorns and quills helped by rustmold symbiotes this entire time is such a major retcon it cannot be accepted. If that were true, it brings up plausibility issues for the lineages' herbivores. For example, if they had iron-reinforced quills and thorns, how could the Ramchin eat them without special adaptations? The lineage is simply too ancient and well-integrated into the planet's ecology for this to be permitted.

I recommend looking up how real plants interact with iron, and their relationships with root microbes.

“the thorns don't discourage herbivores so much as slowly wear down their teeth, causing them to starve once their teeth are too worn down to eat anything. The thorns are also much harder to digest than the leaves, but since the herbivores cannot remove or avoid all the thorns, they must expend greater digestive effort than suggested by the leaves alone.“ -Quaxaca

I actually don’t think having it use iron is that much of a retcon. This iron is a vital part of lignification and defense. It’s more of an elaboration. Nothing really would change


I also removed the Moleroot iron respiration

QUOTE (Coolsteph @ Aug 28 2022, 09:41 PM)

"new research has found it" Sagan 4 is written from the perspective of absolute knowledge, occasional retcons aside. You can, however, point out this submission's lineage derives from the Pioneer Quillball, which sported four species of symbiotic microbes, and so highlight its potential to form symbiotic relationships with multiple kinds of microbes. (Though, admittedly, the Pioneer Quillball's symbiotes were all closely related.) A retcon saying the Pioneer Quillball and its descendants had iron-reinforced thorns and quills helped by rustmold symbiotes this entire time is such a major retcon it cannot be accepted. If that were true, it brings up plausibility issues for the lineages' herbivores. For example, if they had iron-reinforced quills and thorns, how could the Ramchin eat them without special adaptations? The lineage is simply too ancient and well-integrated into the planet's ecology for this to be permitted. I recommend looking up how real plants interact with iron, and their relationships with root microbes.

This post has been edited by HethrJarrod: Aug 29 2022, 12:44 AM