Is there no filter for food capture? Such as bristles?
I think respiration for this group is through the skin, plents have it easy saying they crack water and make oxygen, a non Photosynthesis critter this size I would think would need more specialization.
I think respiration for this group is through the skin, plents have it easy saying they crack water and make oxygen, a non Photosynthesis critter this size I would think would need more specialization.
| QUOTE (colddigger @ Aug 15 2022, 07:59 PM) |
| Is there no filter for food capture? Such as bristles? |
I didn't think of it at the time but that would make its way of feeding a bit easier. Could keep it the same but add tiny bristles around the mouth.
| QUOTE |
| I think respiration for this group is through the skin, plents have it easy saying they crack water and make oxygen, a non Photosynthesis critter this size I would think would need more specialization. |
This one does plenty of photosynthesizing, maybe something to keep in mind if it does get any bigger though.
Certainly. It's just that my attention has been divided on other things lately, and the rate of organism submissions is two to three times greater than I normally deal with. Can you wait 2-3 hours for me to get back to the three organisms you've suggested I review?
The image is effective. Showing the other inividual (for I presume this is at least semi-naturalistic) from the front is helpful, for its anatomy could otherwise be easily misread. The gradient in the background is also pleasant.
It's kind of weird it could get this big without any gills, but it's still flat, has a mouth that's frequently open, and photosynthesizes, so it's sufficient. If you intend to make a bigger (say, 1 meter wide) or thicker-bodied descendant, it could be useful to elaborate on how it gets sufficient oxygenation. But, for now, elaborating on oxygenation is probably optional. If its intestine loops towards the front and has sphincters, it could plausibly breathe through ruffle structures within it while expelling water, or it could perhaps have villi in its mouth.
--
It has a very wide range of particles it can eat. I do not yet know what is a plausible maximum size range, but it seems so exceptional as to warrant special mention of how it is possible. The easiest solution for you is to look for a real-life comparable animal with a small-to-medium sort of size range and similar feeding technique. Since this doesn't have gill rakers and has a blind gut, I recommend looking up animals that similarly have blind guts and no gill rakers, such as some kinds of echinoderms. (https://www.deepseanews.com/2018/12/a-tale-of-one-opening/)
For comparison:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6157963/
"Manta rays are large elasmobranchs that feed by swimming with open mouths, capturing small zooplankton (51 to 100 μm), microcrustaceans (101 to 500 μm), and mesoplankton (>500 μm) while expelling seawater through the gill slits (11, 18)."
"Channeling vorticity: modeling the filter-feeding mechanism in
silver carp using μCT and 3D PIV": "In particular, silver carp feed on a broad range of particle sizes from 4 to 85 μm (Cremer and Smitherman, 1980;
Battonyai et al., 2015; Zhou et al., 2009)"
---
"allow Seanniver to maximize": Allows Seannivers to maximize, unless it has odd conjugation, like "deer" or "sheep". If so, I recommend making a note of it in the description. There are other instances of using "Seanniver" as if it was like "deer" or "sheep", although your use of "Seannivers primarily feed" suggest this use was simply a typo.
"They have a flattened body" is a pronoun mistake. I recommend "It has", with the other pronouns matching "it" accordingly. There are other instances of pronoun misuse. Be sure to check by using the Ctrl + F key combination and "they" and "their".
"40 cm wingspan" would be best described as, "40 cm wide (wingspan)".
"rightside up": Right side up. This type of error should have been caught by a word processor.
"harvest sunlight easier" would sound more fluent as "harvest sunlight more easily".
"compressing their stomach": Can you explain how it does that? Muscular contractions, perhaps?
It would appear it compresses its stomach, while most plankton remain trapped in the gut. The stomach compressing ejects water outward. Guts are generally located in the opposite direction of the esophagus, although these do have a blind gut. Is the gut (intestine) in the direction of the mouth? I had assumed such for the Sitting Dundi, also a plent, although these two have almost nothing in common but for the same kingdom, so there's plenty of room to suppose they are different.
"barren environment" To say the open ocean is barren seems unfair. It's not like the McMurdo Dry Valleys of Antarctica, which haven't had any rain in 2 million years. It's better to note that food is generally sparse in that environment.
"Searays": isn't the name "Seanniver"? There are two instances of this other name.
P.S. The name is a reference to a Jenny Hanniver, isn't it?
Thank you for the detailed response!
I didn't initially plan on having a bigger descendent, but this is a good idea so I might end up doing something based on it. I think I'll leave oxygenation up in the air for now since this creature isn't particularly wild by swarmer standards, but I'm probably adding villi so I might end up elaborating on it anyway.
My idea was it would mostly intake zooplankton from the water, and would occasionally capture smaller fauna that couldn't get out of the way. I'll keep it in mind though and may elaborate on it, I'm already thinking about adding villi to make it easier. That being said, I don't know much about the specifics of suspension feeding so if there's anything off about that, let it be known.
The grammar corrections are always helpful.
I've envisioned the inside of a swarmer to be similar to a bag floating in the ocean, a very simple structure that plankton get stuck in and digested over time, kinda like how corals do it. This is partially based on other swarmer lineages which evolved through-guts, where the structure remains very simple and like a bag with a hole in the back. I feel like it's a pretty good assessment of how it could work for the average swarmer, and doesn't change much here.
As for the compressing, I'll add something about the muscles.
That would be a better way of putting it.
Yep, that's the bit. I was originally going with Searay but changed it last minute because it felt kinda generic. I guess I missed a few mentions, oops!
There is a lot about oxygenation, blind guts, and suspension feeding that's all new to me, so if there's problems its because I'm not an expert.
| QUOTE (Coolsteph @ Sep 3 2022, 02:25 AM) |
| It's kind of weird it could get this big without any gills, but it's still flat, has a mouth that's frequently open, and photosynthesizes, so it's sufficient. If you intend to make a bigger (say, 1 meter wide) or thicker-bodied descendant, it could be useful to elaborate on how it gets sufficient oxygenation. But, for now, elaborating on oxygenation is probably optional. If its intestine loops towards the front and has sphincters, it could plausibly breathe through ruffle structures within it while expelling water, or it could perhaps have villi in its mouth. |
I didn't initially plan on having a bigger descendent, but this is a good idea so I might end up doing something based on it. I think I'll leave oxygenation up in the air for now since this creature isn't particularly wild by swarmer standards, but I'm probably adding villi so I might end up elaborating on it anyway.
| QUOTE |
| It has a very wide range of particles it can eat. I do not yet know what is a plausible maximum size range, but it seems so exceptional as to warrant special mention of how it is possible. The easiest solution for you is to look for a real-life comparable animal with a small-to-medium sort of size range and similar feeding technique. Since this doesn't have gill rakers and has a blind gut, I recommend looking up animals that similarly have blind guts and no gill rakers, such as some kinds of echinoderms. (https://www.deepseanews.com/2018/12/a-tale-of-one-opening/) |
My idea was it would mostly intake zooplankton from the water, and would occasionally capture smaller fauna that couldn't get out of the way. I'll keep it in mind though and may elaborate on it, I'm already thinking about adding villi to make it easier. That being said, I don't know much about the specifics of suspension feeding so if there's anything off about that, let it be known.
The grammar corrections are always helpful.
| QUOTE |
| "compressing their stomach": Can you explain how it does that? Muscular contractions, perhaps? It would appear it compresses its stomach, while most plankton remain trapped in the gut. The stomach compressing ejects water outward. Guts are generally located in the opposite direction of the esophagus, although these do have a blind gut. Is the gut (intestine) in the direction of the mouth? I had assumed such for the Sitting Dundi, also a plent, although these two have almost nothing in common but for the same kingdom, so there's plenty of room to suppose they are different. |
I've envisioned the inside of a swarmer to be similar to a bag floating in the ocean, a very simple structure that plankton get stuck in and digested over time, kinda like how corals do it. This is partially based on other swarmer lineages which evolved through-guts, where the structure remains very simple and like a bag with a hole in the back. I feel like it's a pretty good assessment of how it could work for the average swarmer, and doesn't change much here.
As for the compressing, I'll add something about the muscles.
| QUOTE |
| "barren environment" To say the open ocean is barren seems unfair. It's not like the McMurdo Dry Valleys of Antarctica, which haven't had any rain in 2 million years. It's better to note that food is generally sparse in that environment. |
That would be a better way of putting it.
| QUOTE |
| "Searays": isn't the name "Seanniver"? There are two instances of this other name. P.S. The name is a reference to a Jenny Hanniver, isn't it? |
Yep, that's the bit. I was originally going with Searay but changed it last minute because it felt kinda generic. I guess I missed a few mentions, oops!
There is a lot about oxygenation, blind guts, and suspension feeding that's all new to me, so if there's problems its because I'm not an expert.
It seems you haven't altered the organism's description. Is it customary for you to first acknowledge feedback, and then alter the description? If I recall correctly, members of Sagan4 usually first try to implement feedback and then acknowledge the feedback with a reply.
| QUOTE (Coolsteph @ Sep 4 2022, 09:42 PM) |
| It seems you haven't altered the organism's description. Is it customary for you to first acknowledge feedback, and then alter the description? If I recall correctly, members of Sagan4 usually first try to implement feedback and then acknowledge the feedback with a reply. |
Edited now, sorry for any confusion. Really just changed/elaborated on stuff you mentioned.
Also, anyone know what support swarmers have?
| QUOTE (Jvirus @ Sep 5 2022, 05:04 PM) | ||
Edited now, sorry for any confusion. Really just changed/elaborated on stuff you mentioned. Also, anyone know what support swarmers have? |
Most don't really have any skeletons, which is why they are mostly restricted to the water. I think the three exceptions are the skuniks, the plyents, and the scooters.
"intake more":Take in.
"Seannivvers[...]its mouth": Pronoun confusion.
"it partially": "it" refers to "Seannivers" in the previous sentence, which is in the plural. It is best to fix "Seannivers" to "a Seanniver".
"mouth of Seannivers": another pluralization error.
The "almost microscopic villi" would surely not filter out plankton, unless the entrance to its stomach, once compressed, is itself "almost microscopic". All of the plankton it eats are in a microscopic size range, too, so they would easily escape a macro-level entrance hole, or even a larger-microscopic entrance hole. Now, there are ways to capture very tiny plankton which are actually smaller than the gaps in a filtration system: mucus-mesh grazers like salps can do this. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5966591/) Still, unless they have some kind of bug-catching net-esque apparatus within the stomach itself or some kind of retractable mechanism just outside the stomach entrance, this doesn't make sense, since its physiology is so different from mucus-mesh grazers. In any case, the bug-catching net mechanisms suggested would take more than one step to evolve. One solution is pushing the plankton into an outpocket of the stomach, or a gut, which is coated with sticky mucus, closing off the outpocket or gut with a tight gastrointestinal sphincter mechanism, and then, once most of the food is caught in the mucus, ejecting excess water through the exit. Alternatively, the front end of the stomach could be closed, the food could be caught in mucus, and the water pressed back via sudden clench into the gut, which has some kind of filtration mechanism (perhaps like baleen), and the ejected water goes towards the rear of the organism for a while before looping back around into the all-purpose esophagus-rectum. Merged loops are a big development, though.
The easiest solution is simply to increase either the size of the villi in the back of the throat as a filtration mechanism or increase the size of the particle range. You could probably have the villi in the back of the throat inflate with water or perhaps air, like balloons with air, to serve as filters when ejecting water. If you're using air, though, that requires either gulping air from the surface as needed and sucking it into miniature air sacs for the villi, having an air sac that can be filled with air from the surface that lasts a while, or generating oxygen gas from photosynthesis. The last one would probably be impractical from its known physiology, though.
"Seannivvers[...]its mouth": Pronoun confusion.
"it partially": "it" refers to "Seannivers" in the previous sentence, which is in the plural. It is best to fix "Seannivers" to "a Seanniver".
"mouth of Seannivers": another pluralization error.
The "almost microscopic villi" would surely not filter out plankton, unless the entrance to its stomach, once compressed, is itself "almost microscopic". All of the plankton it eats are in a microscopic size range, too, so they would easily escape a macro-level entrance hole, or even a larger-microscopic entrance hole. Now, there are ways to capture very tiny plankton which are actually smaller than the gaps in a filtration system: mucus-mesh grazers like salps can do this. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5966591/) Still, unless they have some kind of bug-catching net-esque apparatus within the stomach itself or some kind of retractable mechanism just outside the stomach entrance, this doesn't make sense, since its physiology is so different from mucus-mesh grazers. In any case, the bug-catching net mechanisms suggested would take more than one step to evolve. One solution is pushing the plankton into an outpocket of the stomach, or a gut, which is coated with sticky mucus, closing off the outpocket or gut with a tight gastrointestinal sphincter mechanism, and then, once most of the food is caught in the mucus, ejecting excess water through the exit. Alternatively, the front end of the stomach could be closed, the food could be caught in mucus, and the water pressed back via sudden clench into the gut, which has some kind of filtration mechanism (perhaps like baleen), and the ejected water goes towards the rear of the organism for a while before looping back around into the all-purpose esophagus-rectum. Merged loops are a big development, though.
The easiest solution is simply to increase either the size of the villi in the back of the throat as a filtration mechanism or increase the size of the particle range. You could probably have the villi in the back of the throat inflate with water or perhaps air, like balloons with air, to serve as filters when ejecting water. If you're using air, though, that requires either gulping air from the surface as needed and sucking it into miniature air sacs for the villi, having an air sac that can be filled with air from the surface that lasts a while, or generating oxygen gas from photosynthesis. The last one would probably be impractical from its known physiology, though.
| QUOTE (Coolsteph @ Sep 6 2022, 02:24 AM) |
| The easiest solution is simply to increase either the size of the villi in the back of the throat as a filtration mechanism or increase the size of the particle range. You could probably have the villi in the back of the throat inflate with water ... |
Went with this solution, also upped the particle size a bit.
"While water is expelled from the gut, villi in the back of the throat intake it through tiny holes, inflating and blocking most prey from escaping." The expelled water used in food intake is the same water that inflates the villi? I'm assuming a pretty large volume of water is involved, so that would probably require some kind of shunting system, and probably large channels, sacs, and sphincters. The easiest solution would be to direct water in, clench up the stomach or close a throat-sphincter to seal the exit, use peristalsis to move food into the gut or stomach outpocket where most of the food is trapped, have some kind of cilia or tiny sac system near the mouth suck in a portion of water in the stomach to inflate the villi, and then unclenching and "sneezing" out excess water, with any large particles not caught in the mucus of the gut getting caught in the throat-villi, and perhaps pushed back in for a second attempt the next time it feeds, unless it has some other mechanism to digest them, like slightly acidic mucus on the villi themselves.
Whether it needs a large, dedicated villi-inflation system or just a small, barely-detectable system depends on how much water it takes in, how much the villi inflate, and the size of the throat aperture. Judging by the picture from the front, it's hard to tell if it has a particular mouth/throat constriction that funnels food into an esophagus. A diagram would probably help.
The easiest solution that can plausibly be done in one step and doesn't require obscure mucus-mesh dynamics is just increasing the particle size to the macro level (1 mm minimum). This would allow it to capture Orangemosses, Redmosses, Sudisflutanses, Testudiatoms, and Sanguine O'Spheres, which all have members in the 1 mm-1 cm size range. It might also capture the young of other kinds of organisms, of course.
I'm actually unsure how big the villi would be. I think I'm imagining them as bigger than they actually are, to match a throat that isn't very narrow. I'm actually not sure whether these should be villi or papillae (like the bumps on the tongue). In any case, as villi do have substantial blood vessels, villi would surely be best for oxygenation.
Whether it needs a large, dedicated villi-inflation system or just a small, barely-detectable system depends on how much water it takes in, how much the villi inflate, and the size of the throat aperture. Judging by the picture from the front, it's hard to tell if it has a particular mouth/throat constriction that funnels food into an esophagus. A diagram would probably help.
The easiest solution that can plausibly be done in one step and doesn't require obscure mucus-mesh dynamics is just increasing the particle size to the macro level (1 mm minimum). This would allow it to capture Orangemosses, Redmosses, Sudisflutanses, Testudiatoms, and Sanguine O'Spheres, which all have members in the 1 mm-1 cm size range. It might also capture the young of other kinds of organisms, of course.
I'm actually unsure how big the villi would be. I think I'm imagining them as bigger than they actually are, to match a throat that isn't very narrow. I'm actually not sure whether these should be villi or papillae (like the bumps on the tongue). In any case, as villi do have substantial blood vessels, villi would surely be best for oxygenation.
I finally gave in and just increased the particle size. No inflating villi or other complex anatomy things because I just don't have a good grasp on that stuff.
Approval Checklist:
Art:
Art Present?:y
Art clear?:y
Gen number?:y
All limbs shown?:y
Reasonably Comparable to Ancestor?:y
Realistic additions?:y
Name:
Binomial Taxonomic Name?:y
Creator?:y
Ancestor:
Listed?:y
What changes?:
External?: wider fins
Internal?: villi to filter prey
Behavioral/Mental?:swim upside down deeper in water to see predators and warn school members
Are Changes Realistic?:y
New Genus Needed?: y, villi
Habitat:
Type?:1
Flavor?:1
Connected?:y
Wildcard?:
Size:
Same as Ancestor?:n
Within range?:y
Exception?:
Support:
Same as Ancestor?:y
Does It Fit Habitat?:n/a
Reasonable changes (if any)?:
Other?:
Diet:
Same as Ancestor?:n
Transition Rule?:y
Reasonable changes (if any)?: yes, loss of detritivore
Respiration:
Same as Ancestor?: n
Does It Fit Habitat?: y
Reasonable changes (if any)?:y, elaborated
Other?: needs to specify if passive
Thermoregulation:
Same as Ancestor?: n
Does It Fit Habitat?:y
Reasonable changes (if any)?: y elaborated
Other?:
Reproduction:
Same as Ancestor?:y
Does It Fit Habitat?:y
Reasonable changes (if any)?:
Other?:
Description:
Length?: okay
Capitalized correctly?: y
Replace/Split from ancestor?: split
Other?:
Opinion: pending, respiration needs clarifying
Art:
Art Present?:y
Art clear?:y
Gen number?:y
All limbs shown?:y
Reasonably Comparable to Ancestor?:y
Realistic additions?:y
Name:
Binomial Taxonomic Name?:y
Creator?:y
Ancestor:
Listed?:y
What changes?:
External?: wider fins
Internal?: villi to filter prey
Behavioral/Mental?:swim upside down deeper in water to see predators and warn school members
Are Changes Realistic?:y
New Genus Needed?: y, villi
Habitat:
Type?:1
Flavor?:1
Connected?:y
Wildcard?:
Size:
Same as Ancestor?:n
Within range?:y
Exception?:
Support:
Same as Ancestor?:y
Does It Fit Habitat?:n/a
Reasonable changes (if any)?:
Other?:
Diet:
Same as Ancestor?:n
Transition Rule?:y
Reasonable changes (if any)?: yes, loss of detritivore
Respiration:
Same as Ancestor?: n
Does It Fit Habitat?: y
Reasonable changes (if any)?:y, elaborated
Other?: needs to specify if passive
Thermoregulation:
Same as Ancestor?: n
Does It Fit Habitat?:y
Reasonable changes (if any)?: y elaborated
Other?:
Reproduction:
Same as Ancestor?:y
Does It Fit Habitat?:y
Reasonable changes (if any)?:
Other?:
Description:
Length?: okay
Capitalized correctly?: y
Replace/Split from ancestor?: split
Other?:
Opinion: pending, respiration needs clarifying
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