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QUOTE (OviraptorFan @ Aug 18 2022, 10:39 PM)

QUOTE (sad-dingus (chillypaz) @ Aug 18 2022, 08:39 PM) Having been around during the original planning phase of the Arkcrafting Hookphlyer, I would like to say that, admittedly, I was becoming a bit weary seeing the list of biota introduced explode from just a few relict flora specialized for riparian and tundra niches to things either with thriving populations or descendants - things that certainly do not need to be inserted in a newer ecosystem to survive. Additionally, I kinda regret not saying anything about that back then as I was too caught up in the excitement of seeing all that diversity becoming preserved in modern times; maybe I could have prevented the ensuing conflict had I have spoken up. As for specific saves, I disagree with including the Icicleback. Not only does it carry the risk of overruning Maineiac's ecologies, but it also somewhat sullies the significance of the Beach Cheekhorn - what would be its only surviving descendant - and the shrews that would later come to settle into the lands. It was determined that the Ittiz fee are too broken for their own good, so I feel it's better simply to leave them behind. This in turn also goes for the Foi-Devourer Sauceback, which already has two successful descendant lines, and that extant basal saucebacks aren't really a thing we're in dire shortage of. And while I still want a few of those relict flora to make the trip, notably the Numflora and a couple of lightberries, there are a few that don't quite sit right with me: - The Tundra Gemshrub seems difficult to justify bringing over also, as it might be at odds with the pioneeroots and its own cousin flora. - The slingberries would come to have decently healthy numbers over on Barlowe, making their spread here redundant. - The thawgrasses count as vandriswoop flora, so it would be better off to let MNIDJM save them. - At first the Needlevine appears to be a worthwhile pick for spreading, as it is a relatively unique variety of purple flora with no immediately close relatives. But due to it already possessing a sprawling rhizomous growth pattern, it will prove to be a persistent obstacle to dorite's upcoming grass-like orbion. Still, it may not become that pressing a roadblock due to its perplexing phenomenon of asexual-only propagation, and that a more heavily lignaceous rhizomal network requires more energy and nutrients to maintain than the presumably less demanding orbion. All in all, I still appreciate that your Arkcrafting Hookphlyer could give a select few ill-fated biota a second lease at further diversity. It's just that we want to ensure it doesn't become too broken and potentially compromise any emerging ecosystems. While I do see your potential point with the Icicleback in it potentially overrunning Meineac and thus might remove it for that reason, I don't think it would "undermine" the Beach Cheekhorn, as those shrews are quite different in terms of anatomy and lifestyle. An argument against removing it would be that its adaptation to strictly live in cold areas could limit it to there, while there is also not that much it would compete with directly in those areas. When other species do show up like the shrogs and the tipsnappers, the Icicleback would be relatively limited in what niches it could take, with it probably going down the route of being small rodent-like creatures. Thoughts on this response? I have said this many time before, but I think the ittiz fees are not that broken(except for the Mohaw Foi, which is too big and too complex for a single celled organism). The Carpet Foi is about the same size as the larger species of fois that are still alive today, while the Ittiz Foi is only slightly larger then that, plus both of them are not that demanding in lfiestyle in being detritivores. Their larger size would allow them to take advantage of larger bits of detritius than things like Minifees and thus partially avoid competiton. If nessecary, they could be replaced by descendants that go into different niches (i myself had been thinking about a descendant of either one of them that becomes predatory and prey on minifees). If these make it, then the Foi-Devourer Sauceback could also survive, which would be restricted to the salt bog as inland it would face competition from things like the Glacial Sauceback and its descendants native to the continent. I feel like the Tundra Gemshrub would not be in a lot of trouble, as it is a fast growing moss-like flora that is specalized for cold climates, unlike the pioneeroots who seem to be a jack-of-all trades that does not specalize for specific lifestyles (until you get to their descendants, who are mostly found in Drake and Wallace+Vivus). Plus the Tundra Gemshrub would likely have a better chance of settling in than its descendant the Ruby Cruster, since that taxon grows a sort of calcite shell around their stems which likely takes longer to grow. Most of the slingberries had already been removed, the once exception being the Quilled Slingberry which i had proposed to Cheatsy might be able to settle in without too much issue and currently waiting for a response from him. I had already removed the thawgrasses from the list I feel like the last few sentences regarding the Needlevine explain why I think it could stay. It takes longer to grow and its asexual only reproduction means its at a disadavantage compared to the orbions, who grow more quickly and rather early on develop sexual reproduction. I hope these address your points.

Here is a good portion of the stuff. The other stuff that needs discussion is the Greatmouth Charybdis and Amphibious Droopgea.

Also, does this mean the fois have been settled? Or are they still an open discussion?…

This post has been edited by OviraptorFan: Sep 1 2022, 12:24 PM

As I now have four days left to settle everything, I am really hoping we can finish up these discussions!

The Deadline is actually September 11 11:59 PM Pacific Time.

Regardless, let's get cracking.

IIRC, @MNIDJM suggested having it require a pit stop at Truteal, though I'll admittedly need a reminder where that is in regards to the map.

IDK what else we did not go over yet aside from the Amphibious Droopagae either needing to be replaced with a sexual reproducing descendant OR barring it and having a sexually reproducing black algae evolve similarly to the amphibious droopagae.

QUOTE (TheBigDeepCheatsy @ Sep 4 2022, 11:41 PM)

It's actually September 11 11:59 PM Pacific Time. Regardless, let's get cracking. IIRC, @MNIDJM suggested having it require a pit stop at Truteal, though I'll admittedly need a reminder where that is in regards to the map. IDK what else we did not go over yet aside from the Amphibious Droopagae either needing to be replaced with a sexual reproducing descendant OR barring it and having a sexually reproducing black algae evolve similarly to the amphibious droopagae.

So I checked out the location of Truteal, and that landmass is on pretty much the opposite side of the ocean, being closer to Drake than to Barlowe or Maineac.



There is no reason for the arkcrafting hookphlyer to go that far out. Additionally, the species primarily nests and roosts on the rafts in the ocean, not on dry land.


For the Amphibious Droopgea, I would say having it be replaced by a sexually reproducing descendant would be good, as that means when it arrives its limited reproduction would result in it not being able to diversify on the landmass and be relegated to a specalized niche and thus not bring the ecology into chaos.

You forgot the Greatmouth Charybdis, which is the last organism that has not been addressed by anyone yet.

QUOTE (OviraptorFan @ Aug 18 2022, 10:39 PM)

QUOTE (sad-dingus (chillypaz) @ Aug 18 2022, 08:39 PM) Having been around during the original planning phase of the Arkcrafting Hookphlyer, I would like to say that, admittedly, I was becoming a bit weary seeing the list of biota introduced explode from just a few relict flora specialized for riparian and tundra niches to things either with thriving populations or descendants - things that certainly do not need to be inserted in a newer ecosystem to survive. Additionally, I kinda regret not saying anything about that back then as I was too caught up in the excitement of seeing all that diversity becoming preserved in modern times; maybe I could have prevented the ensuing conflict had I have spoken up. As for specific saves, I disagree with including the Icicleback. Not only does it carry the risk of overruning Maineiac's ecologies, but it also somewhat sullies the significance of the Beach Cheekhorn - what would be its only surviving descendant - and the shrews that would later come to settle into the lands. It was determined that the Ittiz fee are too broken for their own good, so I feel it's better simply to leave them behind. This in turn also goes for the Foi-Devourer Sauceback, which already has two successful descendant lines, and that extant basal saucebacks aren't really a thing we're in dire shortage of. And while I still want a few of those relict flora to make the trip, notably the Numflora and a couple of lightberries, there are a few that don't quite sit right with me: - The Tundra Gemshrub seems difficult to justify bringing over also, as it might be at odds with the pioneeroots and its own cousin flora. - The slingberries would come to have decently healthy numbers over on Barlowe, making their spread here redundant. - The thawgrasses count as vandriswoop flora, so it would be better off to let MNIDJM save them. - At first the Needlevine appears to be a worthwhile pick for spreading, as it is a relatively unique variety of purple flora with no immediately close relatives. But due to it already possessing a sprawling rhizomous growth pattern, it will prove to be a persistent obstacle to dorite's upcoming grass-like orbion. Still, it may not become that pressing a roadblock due to its perplexing phenomenon of asexual-only propagation, and that a more heavily lignaceous rhizomal network requires more energy and nutrients to maintain than the presumably less demanding orbion. All in all, I still appreciate that your Arkcrafting Hookphlyer could give a select few ill-fated biota a second lease at further diversity. It's just that we want to ensure it doesn't become too broken and potentially compromise any emerging ecosystems. While I do see your potential point with the Icicleback in it potentially overrunning Meineac and thus might remove it for that reason, I don't think it would "undermine" the Beach Cheekhorn, as those shrews are quite different in terms of anatomy and lifestyle. An argument against removing it would be that its adaptation to strictly live in cold areas could limit it to there, while there is also not that much it would compete with directly in those areas. When other species do show up like the shrogs and the tipsnappers, the Icicleback would be relatively limited in what niches it could take, with it probably going down the route of being small rodent-like creatures. Thoughts on this response? I have said this many time before, but I think the ittiz fees are not that broken(except for the Mohaw Foi, which is too big and too complex for a single celled organism). The Carpet Foi is about the same size as the larger species of fois that are still alive today, while the Ittiz Foi is only slightly larger then that, plus both of them are not that demanding in lfiestyle in being detritivores. Their larger size would allow them to take advantage of larger bits of detritius than things like Minifees and thus partially avoid competiton. If nessecary, they could be replaced by descendants that go into different niches (i myself had been thinking about a descendant of either one of them that becomes predatory and prey on minifees). If these make it, then the Foi-Devourer Sauceback could also survive, which would be restricted to the salt bog as inland it would face competition from things like the Glacial Sauceback and its descendants native to the continent. I feel like the Tundra Gemshrub would not be in a lot of trouble, as it is a fast growing moss-like flora that is specalized for cold climates, unlike the pioneeroots who seem to be a jack-of-all trades that does not specalize for specific lifestyles (until you get to their descendants, who are mostly found in Drake and Wallace+Vivus). Plus the Tundra Gemshrub would likely have a better chance of settling in than its descendant the Ruby Cruster, since that taxon grows a sort of calcite shell around their stems which likely takes longer to grow. Most of the slingberries had already been removed, the once exception being the Quilled Slingberry which i had proposed to Cheatsy might be able to settle in without too much issue and currently waiting for a response from him. I had already removed the thawgrasses from the list I feel like the last few sentences regarding the Needlevine explain why I think it could stay. It takes longer to grow and its asexual only reproduction means its at a disadavantage compared to the orbions, who grow more quickly and rather early on develop sexual reproduction. I hope these address your points.

There is also this series of questions asked by @sad-dingus (chillypaz)(who still needs to respond to my answers to their questions) that I have also responded to. Maybe you could provide your insight on the critiques and the response to said critiques?

This post has been edited by OviraptorFan: Sep 4 2022, 07:57 PM

Icicleback - While I agree with the concerns of overrunning Maineiac, I somewhat disagree with the idea of it muddling the Beach Cheekhorn surviving. However, this could be countered by them being prey items for the enlargening fauna of Maineiac

Ittiz Fee are irrefutably broken even if they are less broken than other extinct ones and it would still be a bit too much of work to try to fix them in this regard when there are other living fee that may/may not need minor tweaking in addition to the metamorph fee's descendants already existing (Charybdis and Charyflora), on top of the Pirate Waxface being morphologically closer to the Foi-Devourer than the Icicleback is to the Cheekhorn (IE, the foi-devourer muddles the Pirate Waxface moreso than the Icicleback does for the Cheekhorn). Furthermore, descendants of existing fee could recreate the iron integration in theory in addition to the osmosis.

Slingberries have fine enough diversity

Thawgrasses will be taken care of by Mnidjm TMU (If these are in Maineiac when Mnidjm has his group approved, it will provide food for the Icicleback)

The Needlevine should be fine, but it needs a single replacement promptly

I am a little questioning on the Gemshrub if only because of its asexual reproduction and I may admittedly make a genus group from these that are better suited to cause less trouble that you could probably utilize as well

Quilled Slingberry, fair enough to stay

The Greater Charybdis, I question because TMU, it has stages that cannot be on land at all and its ancestor is similar and alive and well

Numflora and Iceblaster I am waffly about because of the Numms genus group being made, and because of how the Iceblaster could theoretically be re-created, but functionally better without it spraying ice water and tusks or spikes that don't get in the way of it eating by using the Tusked Grassblaster

Inform me if there is anything else I am missing

QUOTE (TheBigDeepCheatsy @ Sep 5 2022, 05:58 AM)

Icicleback - While I agree with the concerns of overrunning Maineiac, I somewhat disagree with the idea of it muddling the Beach Cheekhorn surviving. However, this could be countered by them being prey items for the enlargening fauna of Maineiac Ittiz Fee are irrefutably broken even if they are less broken than other extinct ones and it would still be a bit too much of work to try to fix them in this regard when there are other living fee that may/may not need minor tweaking in addition to the metamorph fee's descendants already existing (Charybdis and Charyflora), on top of the Pirate Waxface being morphologically closer to the Foi-Devourer than the Icicleback is to the Cheekhorn (IE, the foi-devourer muddles the Pirate Waxface moreso than the Icicleback does for the Cheekhorn). Furthermore, descendants of existing fee could recreate the iron integration in theory in addition to the osmosis. Slingberries have fine enough diversity Thawgrasses will be taken care of by Mnidjm TMU (If these are in Maineiac when Mnidjm has his group approved, it will provide food for the Icicleback) The Needlevine should be fine, but it needs a single replacement promptly I am a little questioning on the Gemshrub if only because of its asexual reproduction and I may admittedly make a genus group from these that are better suited to cause less trouble that you could probably utilize as well Quilled Slingberry, I will need to reread that one promptly and come up with a response (WILL UPDATE THIS POST WHEN I DO) The Greater Charybdis, I question because TMU, it has stages that cannot be on land at all and its ancestor is similar and alive and well Numflora and Iceblaster I am waffly about because of the Numms genus group being made, and because of how the Iceblaster could theoretically be re-created, but functionally better without it spraying ice water and tusks or spikes that don't get in the way of it eating by using the Tusked Grassblaster Inform me if there is anything else I am missing

Regarding the Icicleback, I still checked out the ecosystem pages and there really isnt anything like it on the polar beaches it would dwell in. The closest things that might be competition would be a species of florasnapper who is more generalistic and is much bigger. Plus the polar adaptations of the Icicleback would limit it to this area as the continent warms and if it tried to go somewhere else it would likely fall prey to waxfaces and shrogs when they arrive on the scene. So like i said before, I feel like the Icicleback would be able to fit into the ecosystem without causing too much chaos.

I checked through both species of foi and I can't exactly see what makes them broken. Both are relatively simple detritivores (though the carpet foi does supplement its diet with swamp beans). I also look through the sizes of foi alive today, and the Carpet Foi actually is about the same size as several other species of foi alive today, some of which look a bit more complex such as the Featherbelly Foi. Species like the Water Table Foi are pretty similar to the Carpet Foi in bodyshape and lifestyle as well, so saying the Carpet Foi would be unable to function is a bit misleading. The Ittiz Foi is a bit bigger then most living fois, but it is actually still smaller then the Foilug who is actually 5 centimeters long. The Ittiz Foi is arguably less complex than that species and would thus probably still work as a species though to be fair it may have less of a chance than the Carpet Foi.

Foi-Devourer Saucebacks are still pretty distinct from the waxfaces in many ways. For one thing the extant waxfaces are predators of organisms much bigger than them, and the waxfaces throughout their history either had fused mandibles or highly mobile ones. There are also features like the internalized sauce and their lack of teeth(aside from the mandibles). As such, there really isn't anything like the Foi-Devourer Sauceback alive in modern times, meaning it would not muddle the waxfaces surviving. Alongside the fact this species would be specialized in eating fois and being restricted to the salt bog, I feel like this species would fit in quite nicely into Maineac without causing problems.

Alright, then the Quilled Slingberry stays.

Yeah the Needlevine would absolutely need a descendant that replaces it.

The Tundra Gemshrub's asexual reproduction would still limit it in terms of diversifying on Maineac and since the orbions were already beginning to diversify by week 23 I imagine these little flora would be forced to remain as specalists of the tundra. Does the Tundra Gemshrub make more sense surviving than the Ruby Cruster though?

While the Greater Charybdis young can stay in the water close to the rafts, I can certainly see them not making the journey. I assume I should remove them?

Dingus started the Numms genus group in case the Arkcrafting Hookphlyer is rejected, so im not exactly sure what will happen to the genus group if the phlyer IS approved. So Im not exactly sure how to answer this section. The fate of the Iceblaster also lies on what happens here. If the Numflora is though of as not becoming a genus group, however, I would still argue that both it and the Iceblaster make perfect sense for being on the rafts and getting to Maineac without causing much disruption in the ecosystem.

You can probably address my argument on why Truteal would not make sense as a nesting ground.

This post has been edited by OviraptorFan: Sep 5 2022, 06:56 PM

I kinda wonder if the sauceback wouldn't just fall off

QUOTE (colddigger @ Sep 6 2022, 03:47 AM)

I kinda wonder if the sauceback wouldn't just fall off

What do you mean by that? The rafts are quite large.

And the rafts are being tossed and turned by wind and waves several feet high.

How big are they typically, I saw mention of 6 meters, which is not a bad size, you were saying they're larger?

At that size maybe they wouldn't fall off.

They might get washed off though.

Saucebacks aren't built for holding onto things I guess.

Brings to question if they can grab with their limbs like cats and dogs.

This post has been edited by colddigger: Sep 6 2022, 12:11 PM

QUOTE (colddigger @ Sep 6 2022, 04:10 PM)

How big are they typically, I saw mention of 6 meters, which is not a bad size, you were saying they're larger? At that size maybe they wouldn't fall off. They might get washed off though. Saucebacks aren't built for holding onto things I guess. Brings to question if they can grab with their limbs like cats and dogs.

That the size of the individual Symbioraft Diaminet rafts in the wild, they get much bigger when being cared for the the phlyers. They are likely a few dozen meters wide.

They're still very unstable terrain. I doubt long-legged terrestrial fauna would like them much and would jump off to return to shore if they somehow ended up on one.

QUOTE (Disgustedorite @ Sep 6 2022, 07:24 PM)

They're still very unstable terrain. I doubt long-legged terrestrial fauna would like them much and would jump off to return to shore if they somehow ended up on one.

Even if they are relatively small?

Why would they board them in the first place?

QUOTE (Disgustedorite @ Sep 6 2022, 08:57 PM)

Why would they board them in the first place?

As several species of foi, which make up their diet, would be on the rafts feeding on whatever detritus is there, they would have pretty much no competition for such a resource. Additionally, any natural predators are driven away by the phlyers, who would perceive such creatures like a waxface for example as a threat to themselves and their young. Granted it would still likely be uncommon for foi devourer saucebacks to board the rafts, so much so that they might not be able to establish populations in maineac anyway. The more im thinking about it the more im tempted to remove them from the list.