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I like them, Coolsteph likes them, Oceansky likes them, Cheatsy likes them, others like them, why don't we have a thread for chatting about Undertale and Deltarune? So I made one.

There's actually a meme going around, the "god dammit Kris where the hell are we" meme, of which I made a Sagan 4 iteration (minor Chapter 2 spoilers).

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We don't appear to have spoiler tags yet (MNIDJM please let me access the rest of the control panel), so make sure to hide spoilers for recent releases and discoveries with transparent text! Example:

CODE

[[color=transparent]I'm a spoiler![/color]]

Becomes this (select to read):
[I'm a spoiler!]

Don't forget to [get the banana]! potassium

Edit: I am aware of Toby Fox's statements that Undertale and Deltarune are separate, however they nonetheless share a lot of characters and lore, so it's hard to discuss one without the other unless we're only taking about characters exclusive to Deltarune. I see it as the same as discussing different Zelda games in a single thread.

Crack theory: [Susie and Gaster are the same person]

I refuse to elaborate, even though I could, because it's funnier that way.

good crack theory. here's a slightly more plausible variant: [Spamton and Gaster are the same person]

Also, why have I never seen that meme you made before? did you just decide to post it here only?


P. S, [I Baked You A Battery Acid Pie]

I am here with another Deltarune crack theory of cursed proportions! Click the expand button to see...

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SO. Ralsei is a prince, right? And he has a castle and a town. Ralsei being a prince implies he has a parent who is a king, queen, or [[gender neutral monarch]]. In chapter 2, this town is given a name based on your real life name (which is about the most cursed thing Toby Fox has ever done but that's beside the point). Who better to name the castle town after than the monarch?

Therefore, Ralsei is your son. Future chapters will cost money because Toby Fox is trying to get you to pay your child support.

Hey @Coolsteph you like Undertale and Deltarune, right?

Indeed, I do like Undertale and Deltarune.
I also prefer people send me messages to alert me rather than shouting across the room with an atsign-message.
I was going through my works with backgrounds to see which one would be most suitable for this meme. Hilariously, I'm pretty sure Kris and Susie are absolutely huge according to the scale of your image.

....I did not consider the possibility the player could be the monarch. Apparently I'm controlling some teen's body to give my son friends. The child-support theory actually makes a weird amount of sense, if one is slightly estranged from reality.

I made a lengthy post series, with updates with Chapter 2, proposing Lightners can exert some form of subtle mind control on Darkners. It's largely textually supported, even into Chapter 2, though there are also alternative explanations. I proposed, in an authoritative way, that Ralsei behaved oddly due to having a crush on Kris long before Chapter 2 made it obvious.

QUOTE (Coolsteph @ Oct 10 2021, 02:29 PM)

I was going through my works with backgrounds to see which one would be most suitable for this meme. Hilariously, I'm pretty sure Kris and Susie are absolutely huge according to the scale of your image.

The original image is the lemupuses I drew; lemupuses are a lot smaller than they look, so Kris and Susie would if anything be undersized.

I had originally confused the lemupus background with the "Dixon-Darwin High Grassland - Hornface and Tigmadar" image. Height information for Tigmadars is not given, so I guessed about 1.7 m from the tip of the toes to the top of the ears if they were standing up straight, so they'd be more than 11 feet tall.

Man, I watched some genocide gameplay today and I forgot just how bloody Sans' death was. I know, some theorize determination and others theorize ketchup, but it really was the consistency of blood, you don't get ketchup soaking your hands like that.

A lot of things in Undertale have crazy implications now in the context of Deltarune...it's crazy that both pacifist and genocide have secrets spawned from that encounter with Sans near the end that contain what I would consider strong evidence that, somehow, Sans Undertale and Sans Deltarune are the same Sans. A theory which probably sounds completely absurd to anyone who hasn't played the games.

time for a massive deltarune theory (or set of connected theories)

Click to expand

So, we keep checking out what Susie's up to, huh? We even take control of her soul to dodge for her for a bit in chapter 1. I'm just saying, somehow, I think we're gonna take control of Susie the way we control Kris--and unlike Kris, who can rip their own soul out for a moment of freedom, Susie--as a monster--is too fragile to do that and would be stuck with us.

But how will we get full control of Susie? There's a few different ways it could happen.

The most obvious way is if Kris dies in-story. Since Kris and the player are separate entities, Kris doesn't necessarily have plot armor and could just drop dead but the story continues; we keep watching from the perspective of the soul. So, then, Susie takes Kris' soul. Maybe it's so she can use the power of a human soul to seal fountains, but then again, right before Kris sealed the fountain in the cyber world, she did question if that's really a good thing...so maybe she does it to have the power to avenge Kris's death, or to keep Kris alive at the cost that they're now sharing a body (like Asriel and Chara). Either way, Susie also immediately becomes aware of the full power of the player in this circumstance, and I think she's likely to put up way more of a fight than Kris.

Another way is that the player might be banished from Kris's soul. The player is new, as we only started playing Deltarune in chapter 1, but Kris has had that bird cage all along; perhaps Kris has been possessed by other "players" in the past but had them removed somehow. Now, players are a bit like demons, and there's a line in Undertale calling Chara a demon (and remember, Toby encouraged us to name Chara after ourselves)...and where do you go if you're possessed by a demon? To church, of course! And there just happens to be a church in town, and Father Alvin encouraged Kris to go to tomorrow's service. So, banished from Kris's soul, the player must find someone new to possess. I get a feeling that Susie doesn't go to church very often, so I doubt she knows what to do when possessed by a demon. Thus, you enter her soul, making her the new host. (Maybe alternatively if you're on the Snowgrave route you can possess Noelle? But Noelle goes to church, so)

Third option, you just peace out. leave Kris's soul. and go possess Susie like you're switching cars. Why not

ANyway, Outside the first circumstance where being fused with Kris makes Susie know about the player right away, I think Susie would mistake you for her thinking too much about Kris, you would sound so much like them after all. Once you get more demanding, though, she might start to wonder why her intrusive thoughts sound so much like Kris...and then she'll start to figure it out and start resisting. I imagine her going from being like a video game mascot character, keeping her personality through control that she hardly even notices; to actively fighting, where you have to predict how she will act to manipulate her in the direction you want (which she will be doing to you in turn); all the way to the point of exhaustion, where she's too tired to fight anymore and becomes far more passive, much like Kris, though also like Kris she would still have some control over how she follows your orders.

So, with control over Susie, what would you be able to do? If you like torturing Noelle, that's probably an option. If you're on the Snowgrave route, Noelle is too scared of Kris to follow orders from them anymore, but Susie? I think Noelle trusts her, so the player is in a much better position to do basically whatever they want to the poor reindeer. Or you could just just expedite shippy stuff by making Susie kiss Noelle. Broader storyline-wise, Susie under player control would be pretty dangerous...she isn't capable of killing on her own, but the player may be able to push her. If the player has control over Susie as a result of Susie taking Kris's soul, Susie becomes an incredibly powerful entity, potentially capable of carving the world as the player sees fit to make her do so. Opening and closing fountains...laying burns on Ralsei that are so sick that he dies from shock...wiping or sparing everyone in the world with a few button presses, even. It's kinda scary to think about, really.

QUOTE

Opening and closing fountains...laying burns on Ralsei that are so sick that he dies from shock...

That's darkly hilarious, especially because the first thing that came to mind was a rap diss instead of just being very mean. She would rhyme Ralsei to death. If Ralsei is indeed a red horn handband, as speculated, perhaps she would be made be wear Ralsei's remains as a sick trophy, and possibly make her seem even more demonlike.
The idea of Susie being a good host because she doesn't go to church and therefore wouldn't know how to get rid of demons is pretty good, although it's all speculation as to whether the church in Hometown even has exorcism capacities or teaches people how to do that.
Hmm...I wonder if Kris's interest in the occult was what summoned the red soul/Player to begin with. (Turns out I'm not the first person to think that up. Somebody on Reddit did that this October.)

Oh yeah, I had an idea that Ralsei might end up being a "secret boss" in a future chapter, ending with him turning into weapons or armor. If I was a little better at music I'd try to make a battle theme. I might try anyway.

oh, is it okay if I post about my fan character? I'll put it under a spoiler just in case.

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Sweepy the Evil Broom came to me in a dream sometime in late 2018. I have a lot of OCs, literally tens of thousands at minimum, but being dream-generated makes Sweepy stand out from the rest--only one other OC of mine that I can think of off the top of my head was dream-generated like her. (This isn't counting "lost" dream OCs that I forgot after waking up, like Sweepy's companion (rip))

In the dream, Sweepy was part of either an AU or an undiscovered route in Undertale, where she joins forces with you near the end of a genocide run. That doesn't make much sense though, does it? Why would the player spare her but kill Flowey, as happens on the genocide route? Then Deltarune happened, then Deltarune chapter 2 happened, and it all clicked--she made way, way more sense as a darkner joining the player in otherwise identical circumstances in Deltarune.

I really need to develop her more, but since I "met" her rather than consciously created her, messing with her lore feels wrong, like editing canon. It's hard to shake off.

Hypothetical Deltarune/Sagan 4 crossover. Perfect pacifist route described. I might elaborate more / turn this into a legitimate fic later, but I have never really done dialogue for dr's characters, so...

There is a large room that contains nothing but a hard drive containing a backup of the Sagan 4 wiki at the end of Week 26. There is a door in the southwest. A fountain is opened in the northeastern part of the room. With nothing else to work with, the world that forms is a rough copy of Sagan 4's week 26 ecosystem with darkners based on various extant species. Kris and Susie end up here somehow, and Ralsei is close behind.

Lancer and others aren't here because I forgot about them, but they;'re also just not in Kris's pocket.

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After landing in the ocean, the party ends up on Fermi Island, where the weirdness of this particular dark world starts to set in. The world generated is so large that the fountain--located in Drake--isn't even visible, and there is no sign of any clear main antagonist. Nobody here even wants to fight. Some additional weirdness is, of course, visible to a Sagan 4 fan; this is obviously not Sagan 4 1:1, as the fauna can talk and there's a multicultural potluck going on in Fermi Tundra. With nothing to do here, the party boards a kind seashrog's row-nest (???????????) and makes their way to the supercontinent.

Things start to get more interesting on the supercontinent, but it's still nothing to do with the fountain. Ralsei would probably try to get Kris and Susie to focus on finding it, after all they can't just leave it open, but how can they leave? How can the player? There's a gang of argusraptor-themed darkners bullying everyone. Yeah, dealing with that won't get them any closer to closing the fountain, but boy can you get a lot of recruits here. Susie, obviously an expert in bullies, wrestles the biggest meanest argusraptor and wins as a sparing tactic.

By this point, they've been in the dark world all day and there's no sign of the fountain, though some shrog on the beach might've mentioned seeing "something like that" while up north. Susie is hungry. Kris is too but can't say so. They buy 2 whole haglox steaks or something from a twineshrog shopkeeper and Susie eats both of them, only to remember afterwards that food in the dark world doesn't really satisfy hunger.

There's no option but to look for the fountain before everyone starves to death, but before they leave the supercontinent the party has a strange encounter with something that hints at the nature of this world as a wiki: a darkner based on the wiki layout. Sparing involves hitting the random page button a bunch of times, which spawns some familiar enemies to spare, but a lot of unfamiliar ones and "broken pages" too. After doing this several times, the wiki layout gets annoyed and tells the party to use the search function to "find what they're looking for". There are many options for searches, acting like a more controlled version of the random page button, at some point Ralsei searches for the dark fountain and finds out where it is, but after all options are exhausted the wiki layout still isn't satisfied. Susie gets annoyed and searches complete gibberish, which gets interpreted as a misspelling of "Chimlopzock". The wiki layout says they don't have that. (Susie, making that angry toothy face: "Then why'd ya correct me!?")

Kris tells the wiki layout that they found what they were looking for, ending the battle instantly. Susie and Ralsei are surprised. Susie angrily demands to know why Kris didn't just do that in the first place. It wasn't even an option in the first place. Kris has no answer and Susie is pissed off that they all just wasted so much time on that. Ralsei intervenes and suggests they move on, since fighting each other won't get them anywhere.

Leaving the supercontinent with that kind seashrog again, the party is off to Barlowe. Kris and Susie are both hungry an tired. The kind seashrog offers them his food stores, but dark food is nothing to a lightner. It must be night back home, they've been here so long that Kris and Susie end up falling asleep. (Does Ralsei sleep? I have no idea) Falling asleep hungry, waking up hungry, there's a pirate waxface on Oz Temperate Beach that wants to eat them. Kris--they barely even eat, you know Toriel doesn't seem to feed them much at all--is basically useless, Susie's more functional and that nice seashrog joins the party for this battle (when down, he becomes a broken page image). "Kris" (really the player) tells them what to do while lying on the floor, they just kinda accept that. Not possible to spare directly, the pirate has to be tired out and pacified. Kris is eventually able to get up, but being weak from long-term malnourishment and not eating or drinking anything real in over 24 hours, they generally aren't doing too good, and Ralsei worries that if they don't find the fountain soon Kris won't be able to close it. Now in a rush, the party basically skips Barlowe and continues north.

Unfortunately, they do not end up in Drake, ocean currents take them to Maineiac. The wiki layout is back. Kris is not in a state to do much of anything. Susie points out that this is a wiki--like wikipedia, right? She's probably vandalized a wiki before. Anyone can edit it, maybe they can find their page and edit their location somehow. The fountain is in Drake, so they just have to edit their wiki page to say that's where they are right now. Unfortunately, the Sagan 4 Wiki does not allow unverified users to edit it. But it's on their user pages, so actually, they can. Ralsei is against vandalizing the wiki, so Susie does it. She's bad at editing and manages to create a bridge of broken code. It works, let's go already.

So they finally get to Drake, and there's finally some actual relevant story meat. This is a world forged by the dreams of over 100 lightners, who used their great power to create and destroy life at will for 165 generations, but they're in a side timeline where one of those lightners, using great power to will a new timeline into existence, took them to this room and left them behind for unknown reasons. (Why is there a hard drive in the middle of an empty room?) They had waited and hoped for their return, as while their creators could be destructive they were also necessary for the creation of new life, but nobody came. But in Drake, away from the eyes of most in this world, the Knight appeared and created the fountain, giving every creature of Sagan 4 life, and possibly even a power to forge their world like their creators did. Obviously, the way to the fountain is blocked by several creatures that do not want the fountain to be closed and are using its power to revive their ancestors who the lightners willed into destruction. There is no sole leader, there is only a mob who are very willing to fight.

Maybe Ralsei is up to dealing with this, but Susie and especially Kris are not. If this was where they landed at the start, maybe they could, but they haven't eaten real food since before they got here and they're running on empty. But maybe their new friend, the wiki layout, can help. So, the party summons all the friends they made along the way. However, the recruits are reluctant...after all, they like the freedom to forge their own path that was given to them by the Knight. But Ralsei is able to convince them that they will still have that freedom in the castle town, so they in turn help mass-recruit everyone on Drake. However, there are three who are still reluctant, all of them revived creatures...

The power of the fountain had allowed nomads, sagons, and tripodicians to return. They hate lightners, as they created them solely to die. Their revived leaders understandably distrust the party and their promises of being taken to a castle town, and it sparks a 3 on 3 battle with some severe handicaps because Kris is in no shape to fight, though Susie can fight through the distraction of hunger. It is much like the battle with King in chapter 1, except there's 3 of them; all the party can do is hold on as long as possible until they grow tired, but they don't. Kris and Susie are too tired and go down, they cannot get back up naturally after a few turns like in a normal battle, so then it's just Ralsei. He explains that he is a darkner, so they don't have any reason to hate him like they do Kris and Susie. Only Ralsei acting alone with Kris and Susie down can successfully convince them. Afterwards, Ralsei heals Kris and Susie and they can finally reach and close the fountain (though, maybe Susie's chapter 2 reluctance is carrying over...the player closes it regardless though).

The secret boss is chimpus. I've been writing all day and am too tired to write in an explanation

Since all of this was spawned from a hard drive, Kris just kinda brings the whole thing to the castle town. I'll figure out how that goes another time.

Fermi being a multicultural potluck makes so much sense, with its Fermisaurs and Shrog-spread organisms and immigrating species from the less Fermisaur-dominated places to the south.
The idea of a single Dark World being created or influenced by 100 Lightners is quite interesting, given the scale of the Dark World(s) seems so small now.